8-2 or whatever less gives you a pitch that doesn't quite do enough of either to be that effective. What's equally important is the release angle on the pitch.
Internal Rotation
- Thread starter Rick Pauly
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8-2 or whatever less gives you a pitch that doesn't quite do enough of either to be that effective. What's equally important is the release angle on the pitch.
BoardMember: Great insight into how to throw the rise and the drop!!!
Thanks!!!
What about the change-up? What do you do differently (with reference to the internal-external rotation) to take speed off? How about release too?
Can you show us some video of a pitcher executing the change-up mechanics? Does Uno or Hollowell have a great change-up?
Thanks!!!
What about the change-up? What do you do differently (with reference to the internal-external rotation) to take speed off? How about release too?
Can you show us some video of a pitcher executing the change-up mechanics? Does Uno or Hollowell have a great change-up?
- Jul 14, 2008
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FPcoach.........The origin of this thread was the mechanics of fastpitch pitching........and namely velocity development.......comparing what is "traditional" teachng (the underhand wave) vs. the reality of how high level pitchers actually "throw" the ball with such efficiency AND velocity..........
Those who have followed this thread have realized that much of the traditional teaching is at the very least flawed both physically and mechanically, and at best, is very rarely taught...........
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Rudy, the mechanism that drives the release is effective with all pitches. Rise, Drop, Screw, Curve and Change.........Keeping the thumb on the ball longer and adjusting release and pressure points will result in drop curve for example........
Regarding change up........There are MANY effective ways to throw change. I couldn't begin to discuss just one of them......The list includes.......
Backdoor.....Horseshoe......Knuckle......Palm.....Flip......Among others.....
All are highly effective when executed properly, with different looks and different movement........
Some coaches like myself avoid teaching change up's that include backspin do to the potential of "float" through the zone, and prefer mechanics that move the ball away from the hitter........because the bat head moves through the zone first on the outside portion of the plant.........Which optimizes the effectiveness of an off speed pitch.........
You don't want to throw change or off speed inside for example..........because the bat head gets to the inside part of the plate LAST.......increasing the possibility of contact on a pitch that takes longest to get there............
Hope that makes sense.........
Those who have followed this thread have realized that much of the traditional teaching is at the very least flawed both physically and mechanically, and at best, is very rarely taught...........
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Rudy, the mechanism that drives the release is effective with all pitches. Rise, Drop, Screw, Curve and Change.........Keeping the thumb on the ball longer and adjusting release and pressure points will result in drop curve for example........
Regarding change up........There are MANY effective ways to throw change. I couldn't begin to discuss just one of them......The list includes.......
Backdoor.....Horseshoe......Knuckle......Palm.....Flip......Among others.....
All are highly effective when executed properly, with different looks and different movement........
Some coaches like myself avoid teaching change up's that include backspin do to the potential of "float" through the zone, and prefer mechanics that move the ball away from the hitter........because the bat head moves through the zone first on the outside portion of the plant.........Which optimizes the effectiveness of an off speed pitch.........
You don't want to throw change or off speed inside for example..........because the bat head gets to the inside part of the plate LAST.......increasing the possibility of contact on a pitch that takes longest to get there............
Hope that makes sense.........
This is becoming more and more clear. Many thanks to all.
My question: Is it typical to use the catchers point of view when describing the ball spin via swiveling clockface?
To add to my vocab...what would be an accurate description of "release angle on the pitch" ...is that hand angle release at the ball or the release of the ball towards the plate? I hope this makes sense.
My question: Is it typical to use the catchers point of view when describing the ball spin via swiveling clockface?
To add to my vocab...what would be an accurate description of "release angle on the pitch" ...is that hand angle release at the ball or the release of the ball towards the plate? I hope this makes sense.
- Aug 21, 2008
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I'm always amazed when I ask someone how they throw their change up and they tell me "horseshoe" or "Palm" or any other one. What the heck does that mean? I'm not asking how they grip the ball, I'm asking how they take the speed off it. The grip alone doesn't do it. Yet they seem to taught this is the case. Moreover, the grip being taught can do more harm than good if is significantly different than the other pitches which will tip off the batter it's coming. Nothing is more insane to me than a 12 year old trying to throw a knuckle change, as if she can really grip the ball with her knuckles. I don't know any men at the open level who throw a knuckle change either yet, it's taught. Simply put, there's no way to take speed off without slowing the body down with most of these change ups being taught. And that defeats the whole purpose.
Call me crazy but I think the change up should look (in the pitching mechanics) like all other pitches, which means no slow down. It should have the same spin (preferably a drop) as other pitches so the hitter cannot identify the pitch based on the spin at release.
BM is right, the backflip change on it's own is dangerous because it puts backspin on the ball. Regardless of where you stand on the riseball debate (does it go up or not) one thing is certain is backspin will keep the ball in the air longer. That's not good. A change up should be kept low so that if the hitter does time it, they have to make the secondary adjustment of going down to hit the ball also. 2 movements in the hitter doubles their chance of a bad swing. The combo of being able to read the pitcher's change up early and doing a backflip to keep it up in the zone is a deadly combo.
Bill
o.k. -- that is the question. Leave the different GRIPS out of the discussion. HOW do you slow the speed of the pitch down (without creating backspin). Does it have anything to do with the internal/external rotation of the arm?
On the drop curve -- you say to keep the thumb on the ball longer; does that make the pitch faster or slower???
On the drop curve -- you say to keep the thumb on the ball longer; does that make the pitch faster or slower???
- Jul 14, 2008
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Abby, I don't know what it typical.......I know I (the pitcher) am throwing the ball so spin orientation I describe is has always been from the pitchers prospective.........
If I hold the ball in front of me, pointing it toward the catcher thumb up fingers down, my thumb represents the top of the clock and my fingers the bottom.......
But like I said rotation is not 2 dimensional..........
Example.......If I throw a ball with my thumb slightly to the left of TDC (top dead center), and my fingers are pulling straight up the back, I'm still getting close to 6-12 spin, but the axis is turned slightly left instead of straight down the power line.......
But if I turn my thumb even more left and my fingers are swiping more up the side of the ball, I'm getting more like 4-10 or 5-11 spin.........or what I call more of a "tumble spin"........
A bullet spin pitch from my prospective is one that I see rotating almost purely clock-wise from my prospective.........or counter clockwise from the catchers prospective.........
If I hold the ball in front of me, pointing it toward the catcher thumb up fingers down, my thumb represents the top of the clock and my fingers the bottom.......
But like I said rotation is not 2 dimensional..........
Example.......If I throw a ball with my thumb slightly to the left of TDC (top dead center), and my fingers are pulling straight up the back, I'm still getting close to 6-12 spin, but the axis is turned slightly left instead of straight down the power line.......
But if I turn my thumb even more left and my fingers are swiping more up the side of the ball, I'm getting more like 4-10 or 5-11 spin.........or what I call more of a "tumble spin"........
A bullet spin pitch from my prospective is one that I see rotating almost purely clock-wise from my prospective.........or counter clockwise from the catchers prospective.........
- Jul 14, 2008
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Rudy, leaving the thumb on longer definately slows velocity.........Although the veracity of release can vary all speeds. Someone with a veracious release on the drop curve can keep the velocity up nicely......or, slow it for an off speed pitch.......
A backdoor change for example starts internal rotation earlier so the fingers are passing infront of the ball before release, and the ball it is essence being release out the back of the inverted hand..........almost using a "thumb push" to impart forward inertia..........because you've taken internal rotation out of the equation and completed it before release, velocity is GREATLY reduced........
A horseshoe change is VERY effective, because it has the look of RISE, but falls off the table. With horseshoe change, internal rotation is again started earlier, and stops when the fingers reach the outside of the ball. The elbow is stopping at the hip, and forearm is snapping UP at the elbow toward the shoulder, and the fingers/thumb are on the sides of the ball, so VERY little forward inertia is imparted. The ball act like it would if you were in a car traveling maybe 40mph, held a ball out the window, and simply "let go"........
It would travel forward from momentum of the stride.......but falls quickly at the end as it loses forward inertia............Because the fingers are longer then the thumb, they stay on the ball longer, creating a slight outward spin which moves the ball away from the RH hitter as well, as it falls off the table toward the hitting zone..........
Very effective change..........But tough on the catchers as it can end up in the dirt right behind the plant........
A backdoor change for example starts internal rotation earlier so the fingers are passing infront of the ball before release, and the ball it is essence being release out the back of the inverted hand..........almost using a "thumb push" to impart forward inertia..........because you've taken internal rotation out of the equation and completed it before release, velocity is GREATLY reduced........
A horseshoe change is VERY effective, because it has the look of RISE, but falls off the table. With horseshoe change, internal rotation is again started earlier, and stops when the fingers reach the outside of the ball. The elbow is stopping at the hip, and forearm is snapping UP at the elbow toward the shoulder, and the fingers/thumb are on the sides of the ball, so VERY little forward inertia is imparted. The ball act like it would if you were in a car traveling maybe 40mph, held a ball out the window, and simply "let go"........
It would travel forward from momentum of the stride.......but falls quickly at the end as it loses forward inertia............Because the fingers are longer then the thumb, they stay on the ball longer, creating a slight outward spin which moves the ball away from the RH hitter as well, as it falls off the table toward the hitting zone..........
Very effective change..........But tough on the catchers as it can end up in the dirt right behind the plant........
- Jul 14, 2008
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I'm starting to understand why bumblebee's can't fly.
I'm starting to get it. Seems like quite a bit of work goes into pitching a ball well. Thanks
Your welcome Abby........
Rudy.......regarding change up.......Understand how to activate and de-activate the "torque-generators" helps to know why/how to throw an effective change..........
There are effectively 3 torque generators in the throwing arm/shoulder sequence.....Shoulder complex, Humerus, and Forearm....
There are described as "Proximal" (closest to the body, big muscles, slowest but most powerful, early power) and "Distal" (furthest from the body, smaller muscles, fastest, but less powerful in terms of strength, but quick late velocity adders).............
Effectively "shutting down" the late adders will significantly reduce velocity.
Fusing the ulnar/radial (forearm) rotation to the rotation at the humerus in the shoulder socket eliminates the fast muscle twitch in the forearm/wrist.......And relies mainly on the bigger, slower "proximal" muscles........The look is the same, because the entire arm can travel, but the late adders are NOT ADDING..........
"One" way to accomplish this is to "lock the wrist" wide open (lifting it at the wrist) on the down swing from about 9 o'clock..............
This essentually "KILLS" the wrist/forearm (late adders) at the elbow, and uses the bigger proximal muscles to deliver the ball......Greatly reducing velocity..........
This is why you see can barely see a slight stiffening of the arm during a good change up......
Again, my disclaimer regarding the shoulder applies.........Injury can occur at the shoulder if the sequence is exaggerated or out of sync.........
Be careful when experimenting with the various muscle/joint movements of pitching.......
Finding the right amount of EVERYTHING is the key..........
BOARDMEMBER - I am sitting here watching the replay of the college world series and it seems like to me that Stacey Nelson is throwing an combination of a screwball and a drop ball. HOW IS SHE DOING THAT in context of the internal/external discussion? Thanks for the "stuff" on the change (awesome)!
