I/R in the Classroom

tommyrobertson said:

My DD is 14. She has pitched for 3 years. Can I train her with IR now in a short time(1 month or 2) or is this something that will take 6 months to a year?

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ArmWhip said:

I am curious to know what you think about allowing bulletspin vs topspin. Early on when I taught I looked for topspin, however topspin is also the natural result of the push down, wrist snap motion. Lately I have been allowing bulletspin and in many cases encouraging it by utilizing the football drill. In order to throw the football underhand with a spiral (bulletspin) the arm, elbow and shoulders must in the IR position on the downswing. One other thing puzzles me, I understand that bulletpsin is the result of incomplete 'internal rotation', this would mean that in theory a bulletspin fastball is not as fast as a topspin fastball yet it seems that a great many high level pitchers throw bulletspin (or a close variation of it) for their fastest pitches.

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Bucket Boy said:

After reading all of this post I seem to be missing something. My DD and PC work very hard on the IR. However he also has been working on the Bullet Spin. My question is, the IR method works extreamly well for 4 Seam FB, 2 Seam FB, Drops and Drop Curves. All of which depends on many other factors such as Body postion and follow through, release point and finger action. The Bullet Spin seems to be very effective for a Rise Ball. If the spin is not achieved by the Bullet spin the Rise ball will lay down flat over the plate and good hitters will Park it. Very dangerous place to miss. So my confusion is, is there a way to produce the spin a Rise ball needs by not using the Bullet spin and using the IR method?

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I have thought about working with DD on the IR concept but I just don’t want to mess with her amazing riseball.

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Bucket Boy said:

The Bullet Spin seems to be very effective for a Rise Ball. If the spin is not achieved by the Bullet spin the Rise ball will lay down flat over the plate and good hitters will Park it.

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Ya, I get all of this...........She's 10..........Gotta cut her some slack.........So how about a different approach........

First of all..........Do you know for a fact that she isn't throwing with I/R despite how/what she's being taught? Have you verified your conclusion with video of her mechanics? Have you filmed her and showed her film of her own mechanics compared to high level pitchers?

Last.....And something to consider..........Film her COACH THROWING A PITCH HIM/HERSELF and determine whether HE/SHE can actually throw with high level mechanics.........This might accomplish a few things.

1.) Show her (DD) that he/she (the coach) has no clue, and you've finally realized that, which is why you want to make a change so she can be the best she can be........

2.) You may find out that the coach actually does throw correctly but doesn't teach what HE/SHE does. If so, you can review the film with the coach and encourage HE/SHE to start teaching your DD to pitch they way HE/SHE throws the ball.........This may force the coach to re-think HIS/HER teaching methods. Maybe you can create an I/R coach in your area for the benefit of others!

Let me say this.........If DD is having success at the level she's playing currently.........Regardless of how she's throwing..........And she's fighting you about making a change at this age..........YOU WILL RISK the chance of killing the flame that burns inside her for the sport if you PUSH TOO HARD..........AND RISK the sports relationship between you and her that is just DAD AND DD doing something they love together...........

Are you sure worrying about I/R at this age is worth that risk to YOU????

Sometimes these decisions have to come from within..........And it may NOT be the time for that to happen yet........

I'll tell you this Mav.........I have had many young students who were brought to me for EXACTLY the reasons you are trying to make a change........Parents see first hand how good my pitchers are at such a young age.......And how they are doing something DIFFERENT and more aggressive athletically than they are being taught currently........

And after spending ONE LESSON with they're DD's.........I can tell whether they're DD's are READY AND WILLING to make the changes they need to make.........AND IN MANY CASES, I tell these parents that THIS IS NOT GOING TO WORK at this point in time, BECAUSE the kid is telling me EVERYTHING YOUR DD TELLS you about WHY they don't want to change........And they are FIGHTING the changes from the first minute of the lesson.........

I tell these parents that their kids are not mentally mature enough or ready for the change they (parents) have chosen for their kids.........And to bring them back when THEY (kids) are ready to make the changes necessary to create high level mechanics..........

I tell the parents that it is NOT worth ruining the kids love for pitching, and their own relationships at such a young age........And send them on their way...........

Just some things to consider.........

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BoardMember said:

By the time my students have become fairly proficient at throwing the ball underhand, we progress to the "Liberty Drill"......Simply MORE of the same? Well, an uneducated person might think so. But remember what I said previously.

Who's on first?

"And isolation WITH progression leads to continued non-isolated motor learning of the parts previously isolated."

In other words, when we progress NOT TO FAR, but just far enough, the learned motor skill is "close enough" to the whole of the next drill that it is CLEARLY still represented in that drill.........

For example, IF I allowed my student to progress to FULL MOTION practice drills from this point, the learned I/R motor skill would be so far away (at the end) from the full motion drill, I/R would deteriorate. I NEVER WANT I/R to deteriorate at the expense of progressing to far to fast.

Liberty Side and Rear......If you'll notice, this drill closely mimics the actions of the Magician drill:

Thanks to my wife who brought her glove to work and caught for the first time in 20 years so I could film these drills at work........With the sun in her eyes no less!

After proficiency at Liberty, we move on to "Show it And Throw it"........Or the 12:00 Drill........

This drill helps the student progress to what I consider the most important part of the pitching motion......WITHOUT sacrificing emphasis on I/R.......This drill places emphasis on ball position at the top and the "pull down" in the motion WITH an I/R delivery..........

Then on to relaxed "long toss" full circle drills.......

I hope these visuals help you to gain a better understanding of what I write about concerning I/R delivery and the importance of learning to "throw a ball underhand" before learning to be a pitcher.

One thing I've learned over my 30 or so years of teaching fastpitch. I could spend 3-6 months on posture, grip, wind-up and leg drive, only to find out you DON'T KNOW HOW TO THROW THE BALL in the first place........

Progressive training side effects include helping to train arm circle, posture and delivery methods that ensure the end product produces expected results.

Last.......Train them from WHERE THEY ARE.........NOT WHERE YOU WANT THEM TO BE.......

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