Timing
- Thread starter bobbyb
- Start date
Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch
Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Just my opinion mind you … … the ground work for good timing is the development of synchronization and sequence.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Before introducing points-of-emphasis on timing, I first do my best to embed a clean swing sequence that is well synchronized. I’d argue that doing this goes a long way towards building good timing. In other words, build a swing with a clean swing sequence, which contains important synchronization points, and you’ll also have built a swing capable of exhibiting good timing.
As a simple example of a good sequence … consider the “stretch” in Coil-Stretch-Swing. The intent here is to avoid a swing mechanic where a hitter loads their upper body simultaneously with loading their lower body. Some folks refer to this as uni-load … or “all back together, all forward together” … and it can reek havoc in terms of timing. Obviously that isn’t the swing sequence we wish to promote, yet we’ll often see it in young developing hitters. Instead of a uni-load type mechanic, a sequence that favors good timing would have the lower body loading (coiling, gather, load) ahead of the upper body loading … think in terms of RudyJ’s separation description … some folks refer to that as “walking away from the hands”. Basically, the teaching of loading the hands so as to assist in keeping the weight back, or to assist in building stretch …. The loading of the lower body into the coil, and then the loading of the hands back during the positive move or stride.
Synchronization can be a topic in itself. Synchronization can be pretty involved … or can be quite simple.
There are important sync points throughout the swing. In a general sense, you can approach this as Yeager does …. That being with sidearm throws he works on getting the lower body mechanics well synchronized with the top hand throwing action … and then carries that synchronization of the lower body to top-hand over into the swing. But synchronization can go well beyond that … and include such things as synchronizing the external rotation of the rear upper arm with external rotation of the front femur … which basically, IMO anyway, stresses the importance of having the swing plant the front heel … as opposed to already having the heel planted prior to swing initiation. One can also speak of the synchronization of the rear upper arm with the coiling of the rear hip, …. That is, in terms of the internal rotation of the rear upper arm, which is normally seen with a hitter exhibiting good “live & independent hand action”, you want to see the internal rotation of the rear upper arm synchronized with the coiling into the rear hip.
Bottom-line … build a swing with a healthy sequence, that is well synchronized, and you’ll go a long way to building a swing capable of exhibiting good timing.
As a simple example of a good sequence … consider the “stretch” in Coil-Stretch-Swing. The intent here is to avoid a swing mechanic where a hitter loads their upper body simultaneously with loading their lower body. Some folks refer to this as uni-load … or “all back together, all forward together” … and it can reek havoc in terms of timing. Obviously that isn’t the swing sequence we wish to promote, yet we’ll often see it in young developing hitters. Instead of a uni-load type mechanic, a sequence that favors good timing would have the lower body loading (coiling, gather, load) ahead of the upper body loading … think in terms of RudyJ’s separation description … some folks refer to that as “walking away from the hands”. Basically, the teaching of loading the hands so as to assist in keeping the weight back, or to assist in building stretch …. The loading of the lower body into the coil, and then the loading of the hands back during the positive move or stride.
Synchronization can be a topic in itself. Synchronization can be pretty involved … or can be quite simple.
There are important sync points throughout the swing. In a general sense, you can approach this as Yeager does …. That being with sidearm throws he works on getting the lower body mechanics well synchronized with the top hand throwing action … and then carries that synchronization of the lower body to top-hand over into the swing. But synchronization can go well beyond that … and include such things as synchronizing the external rotation of the rear upper arm with external rotation of the front femur … which basically, IMO anyway, stresses the importance of having the swing plant the front heel … as opposed to already having the heel planted prior to swing initiation. One can also speak of the synchronization of the rear upper arm with the coiling of the rear hip, …. That is, in terms of the internal rotation of the rear upper arm, which is normally seen with a hitter exhibiting good “live & independent hand action”, you want to see the internal rotation of the rear upper arm synchronized with the coiling into the rear hip.
Bottom-line … build a swing with a healthy sequence, that is well synchronized, and you’ll go a long way to building a swing capable of exhibiting good timing.
FFS…TY…I am with you on this part….Clean Sequence – well synchronized.
Good stuff here…at my level of hitting instruction..this is where we have have problems “avoid a swing mechanic where a hitter loads their upper body simultaneously with loading their lower body” …plus dropping the bat at initiating swing...seems to be two biggie's here. TY Good stuff there.
Sequence….I understand….Coil-Stretch-Swing.
So in synchronization…You would be looking to do something like this, during a cue at some point in hitting sequence you synchronize with a cue in the pitchers sequence? Such as an example…
Coil-load as pitcher presents ball or separates her hands
Be at Stretch as pitcher is at 12:00 o’clock
Swing-fire hips as pitcher moves to 3:00 o’clock
Obviously a lot is missing here on my part…such as pitchers speed, arm rotation speed, batters quickness, batters bat speed… etc however...
IF that is true....then could we break down pitchers from say ….1.55-60 mph……2. 50-55 mph…… 3.45-50 mph…And have various synchronized points as “cues”.
Hitters could be classified as 1. Strong…5 frame swing or better/quickness good. 2. Good…5-6 frame swing/quickness decent. 3. Poor greater than six not very quick
So each group of hitter… could be looking to time THEIR sequence cue points…with a cue point at a different point in the pitchers sequence...rather than everyone trying to sync a cue at the same place?
Such as example…
Group 1 hitter vs Group 2 pitchers synchronizing points different than when
Group 1 hitters vs Group 1 pitchers.
Group 2 hitters couldn't have the same pitching cue points as a Group 1 hitter.
As a teaching tool for timing/coaching…is this on the right path? Worth spending time on or am I off in lala land? (lala land=maybe good mental theory, probably not useful in reality)
Good stuff here…at my level of hitting instruction..this is where we have have problems “avoid a swing mechanic where a hitter loads their upper body simultaneously with loading their lower body” …plus dropping the bat at initiating swing...seems to be two biggie's here. TY Good stuff there.
Sequence….I understand….Coil-Stretch-Swing.
So in synchronization…You would be looking to do something like this, during a cue at some point in hitting sequence you synchronize with a cue in the pitchers sequence? Such as an example…
Coil-load as pitcher presents ball or separates her hands
Be at Stretch as pitcher is at 12:00 o’clock
Swing-fire hips as pitcher moves to 3:00 o’clock
Obviously a lot is missing here on my part…such as pitchers speed, arm rotation speed, batters quickness, batters bat speed… etc however...
IF that is true....then could we break down pitchers from say ….1.55-60 mph……2. 50-55 mph…… 3.45-50 mph…And have various synchronized points as “cues”.
Hitters could be classified as 1. Strong…5 frame swing or better/quickness good. 2. Good…5-6 frame swing/quickness decent. 3. Poor greater than six not very quick
So each group of hitter… could be looking to time THEIR sequence cue points…with a cue point at a different point in the pitchers sequence...rather than everyone trying to sync a cue at the same place?
Such as example…
Group 1 hitter vs Group 2 pitchers synchronizing points different than when
Group 1 hitters vs Group 1 pitchers.
Group 2 hitters couldn't have the same pitching cue points as a Group 1 hitter.
As a teaching tool for timing/coaching…is this on the right path? Worth spending time on or am I off in lala land? (lala land=maybe good mental theory, probably not useful in reality)
The Epstein/Williams system is the best one I have seen for specifically dealing with timing. The Epstein system is very robust and one of the few that puts swing mechanics together with the mental approach to hitting. The coil-stretch-separate type HLBB swing uses adjustment during stretch and separation to match the pitch, explained by Epstein as degree of sit and working elbows at "drop and tilt".
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
BB … this is from memory, as I don’t have the videos of my hitters accessible to me at the moment …… but from memory, the majority of my hitters go into their coil/gather/lower-body-load, as the pitcher is approaching the “K” position of their windmill. This is not something I specify or mandate, just an observation on my part. What I’m more anal about is in my hitters getting the sequence correct, and with synchronization points emphasized. But I do agree with the concept of “dancing along with the pitcher”, …. And when using a pitching machine I have the feeder duplicate a windmill motion … and I’m somewhat anal about that as well, as IMO you can ruin a hitter, and take away their timing, simply by running the pitching machine poorly.
What you described … avoiding uni-load …. Is, IMO, an important sequence to get right. RudyJ considers this one of his 5 absolutes. There are various options you can give a kid to help get this sequence correct. Personally, I find this easier to teach with boys … mainly because it’s a piece of cake if you teach a well sync’d “barrel tip” … and I’m hesitant to promote that widely with girls, as I seldom see that mechanic used in FP. However, the hand movement sync with coil is similar, and I’ve found that teaching that to girls as an option works well in removing the uni-load and promoting a good sequence.
What you described … avoiding uni-load …. Is, IMO, an important sequence to get right. RudyJ considers this one of his 5 absolutes. There are various options you can give a kid to help get this sequence correct. Personally, I find this easier to teach with boys … mainly because it’s a piece of cake if you teach a well sync’d “barrel tip” … and I’m hesitant to promote that widely with girls, as I seldom see that mechanic used in FP. However, the hand movement sync with coil is similar, and I’ve found that teaching that to girls as an option works well in removing the uni-load and promoting a good sequence.
Esptein use to get asked this question a lot on his old website. When should I load? When should I stride?
His answer was basically that this question has plaqued hitters since the beginning of baseball. The one timing cue I remember from him was that a hitter absolutely cannot be late to heel plant.
IMO, the best way to solve timing issues is to take lots of batting practice against live pitching. Or, as Epstein would say, once you get your mechanics down you need to "hit, hit, hit".
Timing wise, the one bit of advice I've been given that has never, ever gone wrong is to step when the pitcher steps. I have been struck out once in 15 years. I might not connect 100% every time (so I do mis-hit and so on) but I do connect every time.
The one time I got struck out was when a ball almost hit me in the head. The umpire ruled that in trying to dodge the ball I let my wrists roll over. I hate that umpire
The one time I got struck out was when a ball almost hit me in the head. The umpire ruled that in trying to dodge the ball I let my wrists roll over. I hate that umpire
Jeff Kneiert
Miltonball
- May 3, 2010
- 36
- 0
Can you explain this and show some video? Also you keep referring to Rudy J. I am new here and am not familiar with his work, where can I find out more?
