My Two Cents

FFS - I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say about this topic. I think a MLB swing pattern is ideal for FP. However, my point is that its much more directly applicable to use elite-level female FP players as examples than MLBers because its easier for girls to relate to females and there are physical differences between the sexes. The different center of mass may be the most significant. Talk to a bat designer about how moving the COM in a bat affects performance. Other differences include physical size, strength, body shape etc. My point here quite simply is that I remain unconvinced that you can teach females the MLB swing pattern using the identical approach that you use for males.

Respectfully - GM

FiveFrameSwing said:

Green, when trying to understand someone’s hitting system … Englishbey, HI, Epstein, etc., etc., etc. … it pays to immerse yourself in their teachings and learn everything you can about what they advocate.

You mentioned Howard in your post.

Have you contacted Howard to see if he has a private website where he fields questions about his teachings? Other hitting systems do this, and it greatly helps learn what they are specifically advocating.

The message board here is not moderated in a manner that advocates a particular hitting approach, and personally I find that refreshing … highly refreshing in fact. This is a place where thoughts, ideas and approaches can be merged, discussed and understood from various perspectives.

I think it’s great that people like SL wish to share drills. The implication is that he is sharing information to be helpful. People with a true intent to be helpful generally don’t mind fielding questions … after all, they are trying to be helpful … and when they don’t answer questions, then some can perceive other motives, such as commercialism or a desire to force feed their beliefs … not that this is the case here, but it isn’t completely clear why the desire to be helpful shuts off once questions are asked.

If you wish to immerse yourself into someone’s teachings … then do so. I’ve done that as best I can with several hitting methodologies. I feel I’ve gotten a lot out of it. I think you would as well. Simply contact the instructor of your choice, Howard in this case, and find out how best to immerge yourself in their teachings. I’ve even had instructors ask me if I’d moderate a website for them … which I’ve always said “no”, but the reality is many of them do desire to find a way to get their message out … so don’t be afraid to contact them.

Click to expand...

FFS - Here's my confession. I've been a Ted Williams The Science of Hitting follower since HS days long ago. While it helped my game calling as a catcher to the point that I had pitchers trying to arrange scholarships for me if I transfered to their college, and helped me develop excellent swing mechanics, my problem was that I couldn't leave it outside the batter's box when it was my turn to hit. As a result, when teaching now, I try to keep it as simple as possible mechanically. I think that helps explain my interest in Howard's approach. Not to say I don't try to understand what and how others teach and why, but drills focussing on certain feelings (albeit sometimes exaggerated for effect) or key swing elements are where the rubber hits the road for me. If you're interested in catching, this is where Dave Weaver (aka Catching Coach on this board) excels.

GM

FiveFrameSwing said:

Green … I wanted to respond to this portion separately.

Having been at this several years I have my own thoughts on this topic. When I look back and ask myself what led to the biggest enhancement in terms of assisting hitters, it was my adoption of the Hanson Principle.

The Hanson Principle (… the one to use)

“Always compare what anybody tells you about the swing to slow motion clips of the best hitters in the world”. -- Mark Hanson
Adopting this principle, religiously, resulted in taking more positive steps forward and less steps backwards. Stated differently, the principle assists with doing less stupid things and more smart things.

Click to expand...

FFS - By education and profession I am a scientist and routinely review, assess, interpret, and conclude based on the available information. When new data is generated, the process is repeated to see if the iinitial conclusions remain valid. Your description of the Hanson Principle is easily incorporated iinto this process and GTG for those who have studied countless hours of video. Today, I see more now on video than I used to, but I still have a long to go. Regardless, if something doesn't make sense to me, I won't adopt it until I understand it well enough to employ it effectively (or determine that it's not something I want to incorporate).

GM

regarding girls and throwing, they should be able to learn as well as boys. Bustos did.

teaching throwing is another issue, the info is available now, but "natural learning"/emulation works better with more role models to emulate and more play at a young age.

ask aimhigh about progress he has made recently teaching overhand throw.

a couple of disadvantages girls have besides not playing as much as early are confusing role models which include fewer girls who throw well, windmill pitching which has a different arm action and tendency not wanting to throw hard/play burn out the way more aggressive kids/boys do and throwing a large ball which is more difficult to manage.

start with a small ball.

play long toss and burnout aggressively.

distinguish between the extended arms of the windmill and bent/symmetric arms for overhand throw.

learn to teach by forward (hodge) and backward chaining (nyman. wolforth calls it backward shaping).


in the swing if you grew up following SCIENCE OF HITTING, you should study Epstein's system and contact Kaitlin Cochran or her dad, he posts on some of the boards.

Cochran Applies The Kid's Approach to Softball - ARIZONA STATE OFFICIAL ATHLETIC SITE

http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com/

It’s all good GM.

Hitter does appear to check in here somewhat frequently. You’ll note he’s been logged in during the last 24hrs. He simply chooses not to post. I agree with you that it is unfortunate that he doesn’t post here. That said, I don’t care who the source is, I personally have no intention of dropping the Hanson Principle … and IMO, if the source of good hitting information truly loves hitting, as much as some of us, then they should welcome having discussions with people that employ the Hanson Principle.

I’ve seen a lot of girls with excellent throwing mechanics. Hang out at some of the National tournaments and see if you don’t agree. Someone seems to be teaching these girls to throw … and to throw quite well … and yet I’m still seeing a lot of male coaches. I don’t buy the excuse of not learning to throw well based on the gender of the coach. I played catch with a girl today …. She threw hard …. My index finger is swollen … and at no time during the game of catch did I ever think of her as an inferior thrower.

I would love to primarily use elite level female hitters as examples …. But IMO, in general, female hitters do not make as good of an example as do some of the elite level MLB hitters. It’s simply a matter of the playing level and the pruning process associated with the higher level of competition. It has more to do with economics and society, than it has to do with the gender … IMO anyway. But yes, I do use female hitters as examples with my hitters. However, I will frequently use MLB hitters in message board discussions. I did try to put a decent number of female swing clips in the Model Swings thread …. And more will be added. If you pan through that thread, I think you’ll better understand what I mean with the above comments. That said, I do find attributes in some of those swings that I like, and I share them with my hitters.

Howard seemed to have an answer for everything, and after his long posts they usually said nothing. These guys never last.

Amy in AZ. said:

PM me if you haven't found where he posts.

He is great. I am considering going on the softball cruise, just to hear and see his presentation.

I respect someone that goes to the effort of posting videos and using their own name. I wish everyone was required to, even if we had to pay to register.

Hal Skinner is another one that posts his own stuff and stands by it.

I can't tell you the number of dads that will bring their kid to me for hitting lessons and then, just want me to reinforce what they have been telling them. They don't want to change the grip, the stance, or the elbows. They basically just want to pay me to stand on the rubber and shoot softballs for the kid to hit. They won't believe me when I tell them that learning to hit, takes hours of working in the garage (if you are in cold country) and hitting off a tee, correctly.

I can't teach a kid very much, yelling at her from 40 feet away, with the machine going. I can teach them, though, sitting out in my driveway, with them hitting into a net.

Click to expand...

Might be one of the best posts I've read. Spoken by a person that obviously works with kids,,,,regularly.

I've had Dad's say the same things----such as----"She doesn't need much just a little tweaking."

Then,,,,kid warms up off the tee and hits everything to the pull side or foul, over and over and over.
Way out in front---to state the issue very simply without going into huge detail.

As an instructor I can't just stand there and watch a kid do this knowing that she won't go past 12's or 14's or 16's.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Talking about Howard......green is correct.......many times it is just not worth the effort for Howard, I sense. For example he could explain "it" (whatever the "it" is)----next response would be "yeah Howard BUT-----then Howard takes another run at explaining which is followed by another "yeah but"----and on and on and on it goes.

He's an instructor. Here's what he does. Maybe he explains it to someone's satisfaction and maybe he does not. Take what you can from him---afterall we are all really "independent agents" gathering information and maybe, just maybe,,,,there is a morsel you can take from his teachings that will help.

I'd love to get together with a group---Amy, Howard, and many others here and listen to them---bounce different sets of wordings off of them----genuinely understand their relevant points----learn from them.

Yeah, green,,,so many times people on these boards hide behind keyboards,,,I've given my phone number out to many,,,,the ones that call,,,,we can really connect because we can pull a clip and go over a section and say "Right there---that's what I'm talking about----that's what I see----etc."

In working with kids from soup to nuts as far as athleticism, work ethic, parent influence, past or present coaching,,,I've developed a base line teaching approach that must be molded to fit the circumstance.

Amy said, she respects those that post video of them working with students. Me too.
I also respect and understand if they choose to take them down.

Pardon the interruption.

While Michelle Smith says to many things on the air about hitting, she does say some good things from time to time. When she said the only ML hitters she faced that were a challenge was guys like Wade Boggs who had a flatter swing plane.

The comment on Wade Boggs says a few things. One being he is a contact hitter who isn't trying to hit a ball 400 plus feet. in fastpitch no one has to hit a ball much over 220 ft.

Sport Science did a piece of a minor league player hitting against 95 mph fastball consistently. He then faced Jennie Finch, he was consistently under the the ball. One problem with these encounters is the fastpitch pitcher always throws the ball low to high, not necessarily a rise ball. The baseball hitters usually swing from higher to lower. This is one reason why Smith said hitters like Boggs created a better challenge. Boggs hands started lower. The minor league player facing Finch was more mechanical, his swing didn't break down when facing Finch. He as still consistently under the ball.

Other hitters including the great Pujols entire swing would break down. One reason might be because the pitcher is so close and their affriad of killing Finch. I know I've had that fear when facing one of our pitchers. Another reason is the visual cues are different which throws them off. Another reason might be that they are simple over swinging, trying to hit the ball to hard and to far.

There are obvious differences between the two games. One being elite MEN, and then your average teenage girl.

I'll post 2 clips again, 3 hitters that have some common things in their swing, none of which are Pujols, Manny, Ortiz, etc.,.

LC, I get a sense that Howard would be interested in a forum where he could describe what he does, without questions from those with conflicting notions. I also get a sense that some posters desire the same thing.

Howard … think about it. A private website would allow you to get your message out, and from the sound of it, you would have an audience.