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Thread: The most overlooked technique for creating bat speed/power? Does bat speed = power?

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    Always learning... Eric F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudders Brudder View Post
    One last thought that may or may not play into the conversation, only because an assumptive correlation (probably more like two) has been made but not actually tested...and that's that a softball contact with a bat is or would be the same as that of the tested baseball to bat collision...and that the "vibrations excited" within metal alloy bats are the same (or similar) as to those of the tested wood bats. I'll just leave it at that.
    I would definitely be interested in learning more about the differences between baseball-wood bat vs. softball-composite bat. No only in regards to how the difference in materials affects the equation, but also the difference in masses.
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    ian
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    Quote Originally Posted by pattar View Post
    Your interpretation is the same as mine. The only evidence that off-sweet spot contact will be effected by grip is that Dr. Nathan mentioned it to Ian. I don't believe he published anything with that conclusion. However it makes sense based upon the idea that higher modes will be excited more strongly with this type of contact. By higher, that means they have higher vibration frequencies (that is how they are ordered) and the wave speeds are proportional to the square root of the vibration frequencies. From what I have seen ball bat collision time is 0.7 ms (for baseball) Let us assume a 34 inch bat and sweet spot being 29 in. from the handle. The wave speed of a flexural/"bending" wave would have to be greater than 6905 ft/s ( (58 in. /0.7e-3s)/12 in/ft) in order to reach the contact point before the ball left the bat. A guess would be that these sorts of wave speeds would probably correspond to the 4th or 5th bending mode perhaps? Not sure.
    0.7 ms is the collision time for black out sweet spot contact. Lots of variables to keep track of.

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    Certified softball maniac pattar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
    I would definitely be interested in learning more about the differences between baseball-wood bat vs. softball-composite bat. No only in regards to how the difference in materials affects the equation, but also the difference in masses.
    Main difference for performance is the presence of hoop modes in aluminum/composite bats as they are not solid. Bat moment of inertia would also be effected by the fact that wood bats are solid. However the conclusions regarding grip would probably not be effected significantly as the bending modes (shape and frequency) are not significantly different for wood, aluminum or composite bats (https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bat...g-ISEA2006.pdf see Fig. 1)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    0.7 ms is the collision time for black out sweet spot contact. Lots of variables to keep track of.
    Ok but the point is it is on the order of a ms...I am not sure what argument you are pursuing here...or are you just trying to give me a tough time? It was you who said that Dr. Nathan said that grip matters for anything other than black out sweet spot contact, I am just trying to give a reason for this conclusion.

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    I can talk softball all day Mudders Brudder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    So you believe the bat would break in a 'no hands' collision. Interesting.

    I have to ask. In your scenario how did the 'no hands' bat handle end up in Fraizers hand?
    I can see the either I'm not writing succinctly enough, or your not reading comprehensively enough...but one way or another it's obvious (at least to me) that we're definitely not communicating well at all.

    No, in what I wrote (or attempted to write) was that the bat would break IF the ball hit the handle AND Todd was holding ("vise grip[ping]") it securely as in...
    Of course not...just like it would be more likely that Todd was standing at the plate with half a bat in his hands had the ball hit the handle than it would be that the ball left the park...if he had whatever vise grip he would have had on the bat at the time.
    However, wrt to your bat breaking "in a 'no hands' collision" scenario possibility...while probably humanly physically impossible, I do believe it to be "theoretically" possible that a baseball could be thrown (or shot) at the handle of an unsecured bat at a velocity that could/would be able to break the bat at the handle.

    Which btw, I also believe could be said about throwing/shooting a baseball at the barrel of an unsecured wood bat, and breaking it...it's just that it would have to be at a substantially much greater speed/velocity (pattar will probably tell me how I messed up correlating those two words..) than would be needed to break the same bat at the handle.

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    I can talk softball all day Mudders Brudder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pattar View Post
    Your interpretation is the same as mine. The only evidence that off-sweet spot contact will be effected by grip is that Dr. Nathan mentioned it to Ian. I don't believe he published anything with that conclusion. However it makes sense based upon the idea that higher modes will be excited more strongly with this type of contact. By higher, that means they have higher vibration frequencies (that is how they are ordered) and the wave speeds are proportional to the square root of the vibration frequencies. From what I have seen ball bat collision time is 0.7 ms (for baseball) Let us assume a 34 inch bat and sweet spot being 29 in. from the handle. The wave speed of a flexural/"bending" wave would have to be greater than 6905 ft/s ( (58 in. /0.7e-3s)/12 in/ft) in order to reach the contact point before the ball left the bat. A guess would be that these sorts of wave speeds would probably correspond to the 4th or 5th bending mode perhaps? Not sure.

    OK...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudders Brudder View Post
    I can see the either I'm not writing succinctly enough, or your not reading comprehensively enough...but one way or another it's obvious (at least to me) that we're definitely not communicating well at all.

    No, in what I wrote (or attempted to write) was that the bat would break IF the ball hit the handle AND Todd was holding ("vise grip[ping]") it securely as in...


    However, wrt to your bat breaking "in a 'no hands' collision" scenario possibility...while probably humanly physically impossible, I do believe it to be "theoretically" possible that a baseball could be thrown (or shot) at the handle of an unsecured bat at a velocity that could/would be able to break the bat at the handle.

    Which btw, I also believe could be said about throwing/shooting a baseball at the barrel of an unsecured wood bat, and breaking it...it's just that it would have to be at a substantially much greater speed/velocity (pattar will probably tell me how I messed up correlating those two words..) than would be needed to break the same bat at the handle.
    Speed is a scalar (0th order tensor), velocity is vector (magnitude and direction, 1st order tensor)..but I will let it go

    Breaking of a bat is related to concepts in fracture mechanics..something I CAN GUARANTEE none of you want to get into on this board.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudders Brudder View Post

    OK...
    Amazingly I sometimes get the same type of response from students during office hours..

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    I can talk softball all day Mudders Brudder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
    I would definitely be interested in learning more about the differences between baseball-wood bat vs. softball-composite bat. No only in regards to how the difference in materials affects the equation, but also the difference in masses.
    Yes, I think it would be an interesting study with much to be learned from it. Patter??

    Edit: Oops, guess I should have just kept reading a post or two...
    Quote Originally Posted by pattar View Post
    Main difference for performance is the presence of hoop modes in aluminum/composite bats as they are not solid. Bat moment of inertia would also be effected by the fact that wood bats are solid. However the conclusions regarding grip would probably not be effected significantly as the bending modes (shape and frequency) are not significantly different for wood, aluminum or composite bats (https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bat...g-ISEA2006.pdf see Fig. 1)
    Last edited by Mudders Brudder; 01-11-2019 at 03:08 PM.

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    Certified softball maniac pattar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudders Brudder View Post
    Yes, I think it would be an interesting study with much to be learned from it. Patter??
    You got funding for me? In all seriousness, like I said previously, bat manufacturers have collected data on all of this and more I am pretty
    sure. They don't share it for obvious reasons...

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