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Thread: Swing adjustments

  1. #141
    Certified softball maniac pattar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    Pattar, the hitting sequence needs to include elements that allow a hitter to time the ball.

    You "time the pitcher" so that your 'move out' is occurring at, or a smidgen before, the pithcer's release.

    As the ball is traveling, you are "timing the ball". That is, you are "reading the pitch" and getting prepared to launch your swing.

    What do you have a hitter use to trigger their launching of the swing? You can pick the hands, but the reality is that the torso-engine needs to be in process before the hands begin to work. I see this often with young developing hitters ... they are 'timing the pitch' with their 'hands' and they are late. When I get these same hitters 'timing the pitch' with their torso, they are 'on time'.

    Now, as an 'end around', someone came up with the concept of "intent of the hands on the barrel", and they recommend using that as a 'trigger'. If "intent of the hands on the handle" works for you, then that's awesome. Go with it. For me, the torso-engine reacts to my "reading of the pitch". I don't need to add "intent of the hands on the handle" to a hitter's sequence.

    One thing you may wish to take away from that discussion is that we both agreed that actual hand/forearm usage was not the trigger. I speculate, that reality is what prompted the notion of "intent of the hands on the handle" to spring up ... i.e., a need to remain hand-centric when faced with data that the hands don't lead the process.
    There are obviously a group of core movements before barrel launch that are important to the barrel launch itself. During the read of the pitch posture, etc. would be adjusted so that the hitter can launch from a position of power and still get the barrel to the ball for various pitch locations. You also want to "dance" with the pitcher. However if you were to ask me what my mental thought process is regarding getting the barrel going behind the ball when I decide to launch I am thinking hands. What triggers your engine starting in your car? Is it you opening the door and sitting in your seat which is all necessary (assuming you don't have remote start ), or is it you turning the key?? I would say turning the key, right?

    I will, however, freely admit that I could be wrong and I am totally fine with that
    Last edited by pattar; 01-08-2019 at 05:25 PM.

  2. #142
    Bacon Buttermaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    The arms/hands are responding to the circular energy created by the torso.

    The hands are not the trigger. Over at another site there is a guy who wishes to keep the focus on the hands, but even he acknowledges that the actual hand usage trails behind the hips/torso action ... so he invented a term "intent of the hands on the handle". So for him, the trigger is "intent of the hands on the handle", which he believes has the hips/torso actively working, which in turn has the forearms/hands actively working. Sort of an end-around IMO. The fact is, the hands/forearm-action that we care about is responding to the torso-engine ... and to suggest that the hands trigger an event in-front of its usage becomes an issue when promoting timing.
    The same guy who invented a machine to eliminate the hands and create a huge pull with the torso?

  3. #143
    Certified softball maniac FP26's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity I popped this clip into QuickTime and turned on the frame counter. This particular clip has 60 frames. I first looked for the first sign of the hands torqueing the handle. If my opinion that occurs between frames 51 and 52. I then looked for the first sign of the rear hip starting to turn. That also seems to occur between frames 51 and 52. Sorry guys, that test didn't seem to provide a conclusion.



    Out of curiosity, I did it again, using this clip. This one only has 40 frames. The results; hands between frames 32 and 33 -- hips between frames 32 and 33.



    So basically not enough evidence to support either theory in my opinion. Personally when I talk about hitting, I use the hands as the trigger. But I'm not sure it really matters. Ultimately it is how the instructor conveys the information to the student and how the student interprets and utilizes that information. It is the results that are important to me.
    "Once you stop learning, you start dying" -- Albert Einstein.

  4. #144
    Softball Junkie Spartans21's Avatar
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    Interested to hear opinions on how many frames from launch to contact?

  5. #145
    I eat, sleep and breathe softball FiveFrameSwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pattar View Post
    There are obviously a group of core movements before barrel launch that are important to the barrel launch itself. During the read of the pitch posture, etc. would be adjusted so that the hitter can launch from a position of power and still get the barrel to the ball for various pitch locations. You also want to "dance" with the pitcher. However if you were to ask me what my mental thought process is regarding getting the barrel going behind the ball when I decide to launch I am thinking hands. What triggers your engine starting in your car? Is it you opening the door and sitting in your seat which is all necessary (assuming you don't have remote start ), or is it you turning the key?? I would say turning the key, right?

    I will, however, freely admit that I could be wrong and I am totally fine with that
    I get the desire to time swing launch with the hands. I deal with that issue almost every day.

    What happens is that a kid will be reading a pitch and not have their torso prepared ... because they were timing the pitch with their hands ... and without their torso they 'push' and become army.

    Getting the torso timing the ball is a big plus for many hitters.

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  7. #146
    Softball Junkie Work=wins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    I get the desire to time swing launch with the hands. I deal with that issue almost every day.

    What happens is that a kid will be reading a pitch and not have their torso prepared ... because they were timing the pitch with their hands ... and without their torso they 'push' and become army.

    Getting the torso timing the ball is a big plus for many hitters.
    I’m gonna try the cue with a few of my hitters tonight...

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  9. #147
    Softball Junkie Work=wins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartans21 View Post
    Judge was second in MVP voting and one of the best hitters in baseball. I’m not understanding the ceiling comments. He’s excelling at the highest level.

    If the hands are the one and only trigger commitment is as late as possible. One move and your barrel is to the ball. If two engines fire separately commitment must be earlier.

    I would totally disagree that this philosophy is a bandaid or quick fix as well.
    Do you believe this:
    https://twitter.com/hyattcraig/statu...262245889?s=21

    Is the same as this:
    https://twitter.com/hyattcraig/statu...648058881?s=21

    As far as Judge is concerned. He is on pace to strike out more then anyone in MLB history(at bat to k ratio). Enough said there. How are the other disciples of the ‘HI’ level pattern fairing? I believe most are platooning for a spot next season at best? Correct me if I’m wrong.

    I do appreciate you acknowledging that it’s a DIFFERENT philosophy and not the MLB philosophy. Most will claim it’s the same thing. They are different . No doubt.

    As far as band aids are concerned... when ‘one leg’ is emphasized or ‘pulling back’ is emphasized or even ‘snap it’ is emphasized. There is a something else lacking in the sequence. Such as balance and or proper hand action. This has been my experience through the years. ‘Stay back’ or ‘coil’ or ‘ride the rear leg’ are balancing issues which lead to timing issues . Something else is outta whack for cues like this to surface imo.

    When the sequence is taught with the goal of balance throughout and the torso as the main engine , none of these cues pertain at all. They aren’t necessary. Band aids so to speak.

    Lastly, if the hands launch the swing, and the swing is in the shift, How does the adjustment for offspeed happen? With the eyes?

    Sorry I took so long to respond.
    Thanks in advance.

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  11. #148
    Certified softball maniac pattar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Work=wins View Post

    I do appreciate you acknowledging that it’s a DIFFERENT philosophy and not the MLB philosophy. Most will claim it’s the same thing. They are different . No doubt.
    I freely admit that I am old and may need reading glasses, but I don't see him saying the bolded in the text you quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Work=wins View Post
    Lastly, if the hands launch the swing, and the swing is in the shift, How does the adjustment for offspeed happen? With the eyes?
    Like this


    No need to respond..we can keep the arguing to the other site
    Last edited by pattar; 01-09-2019 at 02:19 PM.

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  13. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by pattar View Post
    I freely admit that I am old and may need reading glasses, but I don't see him saying the bolded in the text you quoted.


    Like this


    No need to respond..we can keep the arguing to the other site
    Lol. I agree. This place is a higher end neighborhood where all the ENGINEERS and doctors live. Spartans said ‘THIS’ philosophy. Meaning different. Again Barry’s COM shifts, his hands stay back. Then he swings. Respond to me at the other place. Let’s keep this place clean.
    Thanks in advance.

  14. #150
    Certified softball maniac pattar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Work=wins View Post
    Lol. I agree. This place is a higher end neighborhood where all the ENGINEERS and doctors live. Spartans said ‘THIS’ philosophy. Meaning different. Again Barry’s COM shifts, his hands stay back. Then he swings. Respond to me at the other place. Let’s keep this place clean.
    Well, the home value would certainly go up here if I moved out, that is for sure!!! Not sure I would say the same for BBD

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