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Thread: Swing adjustments

  1. #101
    Softball Junkie Spartans21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    So in your swing model the rear leg is turning the torso, and that is all happening because of the actions of the hands.

    I have bridge to sell you
    Rear leg is reactionary. Stress it, coil against it. Turn barrel, it feels like the leg snaps around.

    If you stretch against the rear leg, then turn the barrel correctly, I don’t think you need to focus on anything else. Leg will react to the prior movements.

    Sudden. 1 piece swing, two pivot points working simultaneously

  2. #102
    I eat, sleep and breathe softball FiveFrameSwing's Avatar
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    Spartans, I am trying to understand your vision of the swing.

    One guess I have is that you appear to see it as a "rear leg engine" that turns the torso, and a hand-engine. You don't believe those two engines have enough time to be independent engines. You believe only one engine is firing, and you credit the hands. You think that the hands are causing your rear leg to fire.

    Alternatively you see the swing as a single engine ... because you believe there is only time for a single engine ... and you credit the hands-engine to be the single engine. You believe that the hands are causing the rest of the body to move as it does.

    I don't believe, that you believe, either of the above descriptions. I'm just putting it in print so that it can be thought of and quickly ruled out.

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  4. #103
    I eat, sleep and breathe softball FiveFrameSwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartans21 View Post
    Rear leg is reactionary. Stress it, coil against it. Turn barrel, it feels like the leg snaps around.

    If you stretch against the rear leg, then turn the barrel correctly, I don’t think you need to focus on anything else. Leg will react to the prior movements.

    Sudden. 1 piece swing, two pivot points working simultaneously
    For me the lower rear leg is a base/platform/post, whereas the upper rear leg serves as part of the torso-engine.

  5. #104
    Softball Junkie Spartans21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    Spartans, I am trying to understand your vision of the swing.

    One guess I have is that you appear to see it as a "rear leg engine" that turns the torso, and a hand-engine. You don't believe those two engines have enough time to be independent engines. You believe only one engine is firing, and you credit the hands. You think that the hands are causing your rear leg to fire.

    Alternatively you see the swing as a single engine ... because you believe there is only time for a single engine ... and you credit the hands-engine to be the single engine. You believe that the hands are causing the rest of the body to move as it does.

    I don't believe, that you believe, either of the above descriptions. I'm just putting it in print so that it can be thought of and quickly ruled out.
    Two independent engines. Hands are the trigger. They fire instantly almost simultaneously.

    I don’t see .4 seconds as being enough time to read a pitch, Fire one engine, then consciously fire another engine....

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    I eat, sleep and breathe softball FiveFrameSwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartans21 View Post
    Two independent engines. Hands are the trigger. They fire instantly almost simultaneously r.
    I agree with the notion of two independent engines. I also agree that they fire virtually at the same time. In fact, that isn't a bad feel ... but if you are trying to teach synchronization, then it helps to stick with the reality of the torso-engine leading the hand/forearm-engine. As for the "hands being the trigger" ... no ... the torso-engine is the trigger.

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    Certified softball maniac Shawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    I agree with the notion of two independent engines. I also agree that they fire virtually at the same time. In fact, that isn't a bad feel ... but if you are trying to teach synchronization, then it helps to stick with the reality of the torso-engine leading the hand/forearm-engine. As for the "hands being the trigger" ... no ... the torso-engine is the trigger.
    I believe you can have the hands as the trigger for the swing. But, it is only a top down action if the torso/lowerbody initiate to the command of the hands, THe lowerbody/torso are then reacting the support the upperbody.
    "It is hard to fill a cup that is already full"

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    Certified softball maniac FP26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartans21 View Post
    Two independent engines. Hands are the trigger. They fire instantly almost simultaneously.

    I don’t see .4 seconds as being enough time to read a pitch, Fire one engine, then consciously fire another engine....
    I also view the hands as the trigger. That is how I started as a youngster. My first little league coach taught me that. But I also agree that both engines fire almost simultaneously.
    "Once you stop learning, you start dying" -- Albert Einstein.

  9. #108
    I eat, sleep and breathe softball FiveFrameSwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
    I believe you can have the hands as the trigger for the swing. But, it is only a top down action if the torso/lowerbody initiate to the command of the hands, THe lowerbody/torso are then reacting the support the upperbody.
    I've been there and done that ... I even went back to the well a few times. Here's a post I made on that a few days back elsewhere.

    XX, we of course swing with intent.

    Your posts make it clear that you understand that the hips/torso-engine goes before the hands/forearm-engine. That's good ... it's technically correct.

    The issue comes down to how you instruct a hitter to 'time the ball'.

    Many of us taught the notion of 'timing the ball' with the hands. I was there. I did that also. I fell for it. I don't do that any longer.

    Mudvine would often speak of instructing hitters to have a mentality of hitting with their rear hip. For a while I used that cue with hitters with success. The notion being to 'time the ball' with the hip ... or hip-engine if you wish. Actually I used mental image cues that I believe I received from Mudvine ... and they worked with young developing hitters quite well.

    For me personally the thought process matured to 'timing the ball' with the torso-engine. I have my hitters 'twitch at the ball'. That's different than 'timing the ball' with your hands. That 'twitch' comes before 'hand/forearm' usage ... and that's important. My review of your posts acknowledge that you truly do understand that the hips/torso-engine leads the way. This is important in so many ways ... from a timing mentality, to a loading mentality in preparation to swing, to a loading mentality as the swing progresses, and to satisfying the real intent ... which is to square the ball.

    I am guessing that you felt a need to give credit back to the hands ... so you invented the term "intent of the hands on the handle" and then credited the hips/torso-engine as 'reacting' to the 'intent of the hands on the handle'. That has you 'timing the ball' with 'intent on the hands', which allows you to go back to the hands. In a sense you are 'timing the ball' with 'intent of the hands on the handle', which you believe has your hips/torso-engine 'firing', which then has your hands/forearms actually working and providing what you 'intended' ... hand usage.

    Bottom line ... we swing with intent to get the barrel behind and through the ball ... we barrel up ... that's the objective ... but what do you have hitters 'time the ball' with. You can't pick the hands, because that will have young developing hitters being late. So you can do like Mudvine did and pick the rear hip ... or perhaps like I do now, you can pick the torso-engine ... or you could create something such as 'intent of the hands', which in your model replaces the torso-engine as the timing mechanism ... or to be more fair, in your model you believe the 'intent of the hands' has the hip/torso-engine firing/twitching/reacting/responding, which has the forearms/hands responding ... whereas in my model I simply 'time the ball with the torso', which then has the forearms/hands responding.

    One thing is for certain ... you can't move a lot of young developing hitters forward by having them 'time the ball' with their hands. We both seem to recognize that. You went with 'intent of the hands' ... I went with the torso-engine. If that works for you and your hitters, then that's all that really matters.

  10. #109
    Softball Junkie DRDRODD's Avatar
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    FFS is there a way of looking at video to determine if someone is using their torso correctly? Curious because you stayed in an earlier post that most players get power happy when they find the torso engine.


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  11. #110
    Softball Junkie Tango's Avatar
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    FiveFrameSwing would you please tell what all involved in the twitch? Where is your elbows?

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