Staying back

MB, just trying to collect my thoughts on your view.

When I speak of barrel-path I tend to focus primarily on the bat-head/sweet-spot.

When you speak of barrel-path are you focusing on the entire length of the bat?

I appreciate the response, and agree with much of it, but I think for different reasons than what I think you were trying to explain. It'll be easier if I break you post down to explain...

FiveFrameSwing said:

I don't believe anyone that places an emphasis on hand-path is ignoring the barrel.

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Agreed, I hope completely "ignoring" the barrel wasn't the takeaway when I was talking about "focus" or "focusing" on one part of the body over another, instead of more of a focus on one part in the total body awareness it takes to hit a round ball with a round stick...but I see how that might, or could have been interpreted that way.

One doesn't shift a focus suddenly to barreling up ... that was the goal when they stepped into the batter's box ... it's just that the hand-path can assist with that goal.

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OK, I'm listening...what is "hand path" the cue or teach that "assists" in focus on the barrel to achieve "barreling up" the ball?

When working on swing development ... and when working on building short-term memory during the heat of battle (dry swing mechanics between pitches) ... it helps to focus on a particular goal. The notion is to build a particular aspect of the swing into short-term memory and then trust that is in your swing ... as you attempt to barrel up the next pitch.

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Again OK, but IMO those "dry swing mechanics between pitches" is simply the hitter feeling/finding the barrel in his/her mind, and not really any teachable "hand path" that they should attempt to use in their upcoming swing. But that's also my question(s) wrt cue/teach that are used by others that believe that on-deck hand movement is the hitter thinking about his "hand path" to the ball, and not simply them "finding the barrel" in their hands.

Having multiple goals at different points of the same swing won't work well ... the swing is just too quick for that.

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Yes, I agree, and why I'm asking if someone "places an emphasis on hand-path", what are the cues or teachings that tells a hitter to no longer take that emphasized hand-path to the ball, but instead take it away from it that "can assist with that goal" to allow the barrel to get to it?

So during swing development you break down what you are working on. For an accomplished hitter that may change from swing-to-swing. For someone in the batter's box that may change from swing-to-swing as well. I tell the hitters on my teams that if they are not using their time between pitches to address what they need to focus on, then they are not working hard enough.

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OK, I think we might be honing in on my question(s), or at least I can now ask them from a different reference point if nothing else.

So if a hitter is struggling when focusing on the barrel path or "barrel to the ball" if you will...what cue or instruction do you remind them of that you'd been working on with them earlier in the cages that will get them taking their "knob/hands to the ball", and then at the exact right moment take the "knob/hands away from the ball" as we see all HL hitters doing in order to get the barrel through the ball...as shown in the Trout gif above?

I guess all I'm really saying/asking....is what is the "hand path" that one would want the would guarantee the correct "barrel path" that I think we all pretty much agree on? We keep seeing videos of Bonds, Pujols, Harper, and others saying they direct their hands straight down to the ball...but when we see those exact same hitters in the game, we see that not a single one of them actually does that in their games swings.

So all I'm asking for is how do folks teach this "knob/hands to the ball" theory or cue, and then somehow manage to get their hitters to get the barrel coming from "behind and through" the ball....instead of the "down and to" path that all of the hitters that came to me possessed, who were taught the "hands/knob to the ball" cue in prior instruction?

Ah, read this after my previous post...good question.

FiveFrameSwing said:

MB, just trying to collect my thoughts on your view.

When I speak of barrel-path I tend to focus primarily on the bat-head/sweet-spot.

When you speak of barrel-path are you focusing on the entire length of the bat?

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No, like you I focus on the "bat-head/sweet-spot", and use that to show the "path" I want that "bat-head/sweet-spot/(barrel)" to travel to the ball.

That "path" is the "behind and through" the ball path that I talk about, and I think is exemplified really well in these two clips that have been around forever....

...that heck, you might have even been the one who made them.

I agree with the one thought in the box and between pitches method. More than one simple thought will cause paralysis by analysis. Same with golf, too. With my DD the thought may change game to game or week to week. Right now its "throw the barrel." It has been "land open" referring to the front foot. (I know some won't like that). It has been "X-factor." It's been "see the ball." Always just one.

Something I believe that is overlooked in hitting is a consistent set up or stance. Hitters should work on and know their stance. (mirror is helpful) I am not saying all stances need to be exactly the same but some are better than others. But whatever stance is being employed should be consistent. Dont be this guy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8bf_SzTboU

MB, lots of questions ….

First ... I sincerely hope you and the family are enjoying this fine Thanksgiving Day.

Always great to break away for a discussion on hitting though .

A hand-path cue that I use with my hitters is that the “top hand trys to stay up”. This is meant in reference to the top-hand staying up during the initial torso-engine twitch.

Another hand-path cue that I use is to “pass through an upright vee”. This has the thought process further downstream than the above hand-path cue.

Yet another hand-path cue that I use to “attack from the top”, “attack from above the ball” … reference to the hands being above the ball ... this is more an overall mentality.

The notion is pretty basic. We physically ‘swing’ the bat. The swinging action has the bat going from ‘above’ to ‘below’ our hands ... pretty much like a 'swing'. If the hands are brought too low, then we aren’t quite ‘swinging’ the bat IMO.

Regarding this here …

So if a hitter is struggling when focusing on the barrel path or "barrel to the ball" if you will...what cue or instruction do you remind them of that you'd been working on with them earlier in the cages that will get them taking their "knob/hands to the ball", and then at the exact right moment take the "knob/hands away from the ball" as we see all HL hitters doing in order to get the barrel through the ball...as shown in the Trout gif above?

I do not speak to my hitters in terms of “knob/hands to the ball”. What you describe as taking the hands to the ball, and then changing the focus to hands away from the ball, is not good. You have me laughing … why? … because I personally tried what you describe a decade or so ago and I recall the awful feeling that resulted. I did this against full speed pitching in the cages. It was horrible. So if that is your point, then I get it. I get it in spades! I am much more barrel centric than that.

You also wrote this here …

So all I'm asking for is how do folks teach this "knob/hands to the ball" theory or cue, and then somehow manage to get their hitters to get the barrel coming from "behind and through" the ball.

First, no one physically takes the knob/hands to the ball. That would hurt . What folks like Gwynn meant with this cue was that they initially applied pressure via their hands to the handle of the bat. If you take this cue beyond the early portion of the swing then you are toast. The feeling of having this swing thought deep into the swing is horrifying at full speed. It feels really bad! Hence you are suggesting that the swing mentality has to ‘switch’ midstream … and believe it or not … that is pretty much what Gwynn was recommending when he said “and the barrel will follow”. In other words, knob/hands to the ball is a early swing cue … it isn’t a swing cue to take deep into your swing. For me personally … I’m more barrel centric in this feel … the swing flows better for me from a barrel centric focus than a knob centric focus. That doesn’t mean that I don’t pay attention to the hand-path however … I do … the hands are connected to the other end of the bat … and that’s why I asked you about whether you were considering the entire bat or bat-head in your description of barrel-path.

I sincerely appreciate the discussion. Thank you!

Rolling Hard said:

I agree with the one thought in the box and between pitches method. More than one simple thought will cause paralysis by analysis. Same with golf, too. With my DD the thought may change game to game or week to week. Right now its "throw the barrel." It has been "land open" referring to the front foot. (I know some won't like that). It has been "X-factor." It's been "see the ball." Always just one.

Something I believe that is overlooked in hitting is a consistent set up or stance. Hitters should work on and know their stance. (mirror is helpful) I am not saying all stances need to be exactly the same but some are better than others. But whatever stance is being employed should be consistent. Dont be this guy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8bf_SzTboU

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In the box I want my hitters to have a predator mentality. That's about the only thinking I want taking place during a live pitch. I don't want my hitters thinking about their swing mechanics during a live pitch. Thinking about the swing will slow their swing down ... seriously ... it will physically slow the swing down ... and that isn't what you want when it's time to move at reactionary speeds. Instead you do your thinking, and building of short-term muscle memory, outside of the box ... like when you are getting a signal from the third-base coach between pitches ... you build muscle memory at this time ... and the muscle memory you work on is based on a particular swing deficiency that you felt was missing from your last swing ... you then step back in the box to "see ball, hit ball".

FiveFrameSwing said:

MB, lots of questions ….

First ... I sincerely hope you and the family are enjoying this fine Thanksgiving Day.

Always great to break away for a discussion on hitting though .

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Thank you Five, I am certainly enjoying my day...because due to some scheduling snafus with one adult kid working, and another with his "significant other's" family holidays to consider also nowadays....we're do our family Thanksgiving tomorrow, so today was all about relaxing, a little shopping, and some cook prep to get ahead on tmrw's feast preparation.

Hope you had a great Thanksgiving today with family, and friends...catching up on the year's doings, and sharing thoughts of thankfulness that all of us are blessed with living in this great country, and all of what this day should mean to all of us here.

A hand-path cue that I use with my hitters is that the “top hand trys to stay up”. This is meant in reference to the top-hand staying up during the initial torso-engine twitch.

Another hand-path cue that I use is to “pass through an upright vee”. This has the thought process further downstream than the above hand-path cue.

Yet another hand-path cue that I use to “attack from the top”, “attack from above the ball” … reference to the hands being above the ball ... this is more an overall mentality.

The notion is pretty basic. We physically ‘swing’ the bat. The swinging action has the bat going from ‘above’ to ‘below’ our hands ... pretty much like a 'swing'. If the hands are brought too low, then we aren’t quite ‘swinging’ the bat IMO.

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I can appreciate all of those cues, and really don't have a problem with any of them...since I believe they are all more "position related" if you will, and not so much descriptive of any actual "path" that the hands might "take" to the ball.

IOWs, they all sound more like cues wrt getting to the "Position of Power" (Hudgens), the "RVP Connection Position" (Slaught), "Truth Position" (Tewks), "Torque Position" (Epstein), "Swearing in Position" (Schenck), and so on...and where a hitter should be "launching" the barrel from, and not necessarily cues of some path of the "hands/knob to (or towards) the ball"...but that's just my reading, take, or interpretation of them.

Regarding this here …

So if a hitter is struggling when focusing on the barrel path or "barrel to the ball" if you will...what cue or instruction do you remind them of that you'd been working on with them earlier in the cages that will get them taking their "knob/hands to the ball", and then at the exact right moment take the "knob/hands away from the ball" as we see all HL hitters doing in order to get the barrel through the ball...as shown in the Trout gif above?

I do not speak to my hitters in terms of “knob/hands to the ball”. What you describe as taking the hands to the ball, and then changing the focus to hands away from the ball, is not good. You have me laughing … why? … because I personally tried what you describe a decade or so ago and I recall the awful feeling that resulted. I did this against full speed pitching in the cages. It was horrible. So if that is your point, then I get it. I get it in spades! I am much more barrel centric than that.

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Yes, I guess that was pretty much my point. In that all of the hitters that I had come to me with previous "knob/hands to the ball” as their main instruction...were "horrible", and all had terrible barrel paths to the ball.

That said, I have no problem with someone like yourself using some of the above "hand positioning" cues you mentioned above to set up a proper location to launch the barrel from, and set it on its "path" into the ball...and see how those would/could be quite beneficial to some hitters.

But that's not what I've ever understood any instructor using or meaning when they instruct with the "knob/hands to the ball" cues. They literally expect, or allow their hitters to take the knob or hands to/towards the ball prior to any thought about actually "launching" the barrel until it's already well out front or way from any of the above mentioned "launch positions" from the various well-known instructors above.

You also wrote this here …

So all I'm asking for is how do folks teach this "knob/hands to the ball" theory or cue, and then somehow manage to get their hitters to get the barrel coming from "behind and through" the ball.

First, no one physically takes the knob/hands to the ball. That would hurt .

Click to expand...

It's funny that you mention that, because that's one of the things I joke to the "knob/hands to the ball" hitters that come to me. It's pretty easy to see hitters who have that cue pattern swing, and when I talk to them about it, I simply ask them what part of the bat (or body) that they want to hit the ball with, and joke to them how "It must hurt when you actually hit the ball with your hands, no?". LOL!

All of them confirm that they do indeed want to hit the ball with the barrel of the bat, and not the knob, and especially not with their hand...so I ask them why then are you thinking about taking the "knob/hands to the ball" instead of thinking about the best way (path) of getting the barrel to it?

What folks like Gwynn meant with this cue was that they initially applied pressure via their hands to the handle of the bat. If you take this cue beyond the early portion of the swing then you are toast. The feeling of having this swing thought deep into the swing is horrifying at full speed. It feels really bad! Hence you are suggesting that the swing mentality has to ‘switch’ midstream … and believe it or not … that is pretty much what Gwynn was recommending when he said “and the barrel will follow”. In other words, knob/hands to the ball is a early swing cue … it isn’t a swing cue to take deep into your swing. For me personally … I’m more barrel centric in this feel … the swing flows better for me from a barrel centric focus than a knob centric focus. That doesn’t mean that I don’t pay attention to the hand-path however … I do … the hands are connected to the other end of the bat … and that’s why I asked you about whether you were considering the entire bat or bat-head in your description of barrel-path.

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You know I'm all about the "initially applied (horizontal) pressure via their hands to the handle of the bat" to get it "turning" early. Unfortunately, I believe most instructors, and all of the hitters using the "knob/hands to the ball" cue will have "initially applied (vertical) pressure via their hands to the handle (knob) of the bat" along the length of said bat..."dragging" the bat into zone, and eventually into the ball on a "down and to" path of the bat/barrel that extremely limits the size of the hitting zone they'll now have available to them to work with.

I guess this is why I think it is oftentimes problematic to take a professional hitters' cues verbatim (Gwynn, Bonds, Pujols, Mattingly...) w/o comparing them to their game swings to make sure the words match up to the actions. IMO, all but just a couple of the pros really do seem much more "barrel-centric" in their swings as you, and I have said we are...and why it sometimes baffles me somewhat as to why some of them spend so much time on talking about some "hand-centric" movements not really seen in their swings.

I sincerely appreciate the discussion. Thank you!

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Myself as well Five. Thanks for the (adult) conversation.

MB and FFS, this is one of the better discussions on hitting I've read in some time. Both of you know close to what I coach. I do coach point the knob, deliver the barrel. The reason for this is that I seem to have a lot of hitters who have been taught some version of extension where they extend early to the ball losing, very early in their swing, the connection aspect I teach. MB brings up a great point about drag. That is a problem and one I have personally seen. That is why an ongoing conversation with the hitter is so important. IMO, it is important to cover the aspects of lag and drag with your hitter. Again, this discussion has been a good read. Thanks.

Edited to add:

MB here is hoping that you have an outstanding day today with the family. Yesterday, I got to meet BB's new boyfriend. He seems to fit the bill. College athlete and 6'3". BB begged me not to be mean to him. LOL

Cannonball said:

BB begged me not to be mean to him. LOL

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How did that work out?