Is there such a thing as to early?

TDS said:

Fooled to me is not getting the read on the pitch.. Thought it was fastball based on spin and it was a changeup.

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Ok fine..so if he read it as a changeup his swing would have been the same? Not a big deal and not looking for an argument, just saying he made an adjustment
to his swing because for whatever reason the speed was slower than what he was expecting (e.g. he was fooled.. )

pattar said:

Ok fine..so if he read it as a changeup his swing would have been the same?

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No, Bonds pattern was to move out fast ball and sits off-speed.. Bonds was moving out/shifting before pitch recognition and his mechanics allowed him to sit longer for the off-speed pitch without giving up anything on the swing.

TDS said:

No, Bonds pattern was to move out fast ball and sits off-speed.. Bonds was moving out/shifting before pitch recognition and his mechanics allowed him to sit longer for the off-speed pitch without giving up anything on the swing.

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Ok, so Bonds was never,ever fooled? You can be "fooled" and still put a good swing on the ball..it just won't be the same swing as you would take if you weren't fooled..that might be the definition of a good hitter
actually..

pattar said:

Ok, so Bonds was never,ever fooled? You can be "fooled" and still put a good swing on the ball..it just won't be the same swing as you would take if you weren't fooled..that might be the definition of a good hitter
actually..

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I don't believe I ever said that Bonds was never ever fooled.

TDS said:

No, Bonds pattern was to move out fast ball and sits off-speed.. Bonds was moving out/shifting before pitch recognition and his mechanics allowed him to sit longer for the off-speed pitch without giving up anything on the swing.

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Correct ... the 'move out' occurs at, or even just prior, to the pitcher's release ... so one can not yet 'read' if the pitch is a fastball or change-up at the start of the 'move out' ... hence the 'move out' is based on being able to deal with the fastball, yet the sequence needs to be able to deal with off-speed.

pattar said:

Ok, so Bonds was never,ever fooled? You can be "fooled" and still put a good swing on the ball..it just won't be the same swing as you would take if you weren't fooled..that might be the definition of a good hitter
actually..

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IMO Bonds was not 'fooled' in the example given. His 'move out' was based on a fastball, but his 'reading of the pitch' was that he received a change-up.

His 'reading of the pitch' was accurate IMO.

His 'move out' was simply that of being prepared for the 'fastball'.

Bonds is more than capable to 'move out' fastball and react to his 'reading of the pitch' ... be it a fastball or change-up.

FiveFrameSwing said:

Correct ... the 'move out' occurs at, or even just prior, to the pitcher's release ... so one can not yet 'read' if the pitch is a fastball or change-up at the start of the 'move out' ... hence the 'move out' is based on being able to deal with the fastball, yet the sequence needs to be able to deal with off-speed.

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I agree with this. The rhythm required to hit various pitches starts before a pitch can possibly be 'read'. Unless a hitter is at BP, adjustments are occurring all the time. It's just the degree of adjustment that varies.

FiveFrameSwing said:

IMO Bonds was not 'fooled' in the example given. His 'move out' was based on a fastball, but his 'reading of the pitch' was that he received a change-up.

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So by your definition fooled would be an incorrect reading of the pitch? I agree with everything else and perhaps I would agree with that definition of fooled..semantics anyway..doesn't really matter

FP26 said:

I agree with this. The rhythm required to hit various pitches starts before a pitch can possibly be 'read'. Unless a hitter is at BP, adjustments are occurring all the time. It's just the degree of adjustment that varies.

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100% agree with this. I guess I was thinking that if someone is sitting fastball and got a changeup that would be fooled to some degree, whatever

pattar said:

So by your definition fooled would be an incorrect reading of the pitch? I agree with everything else and perhaps I would agree with that definition of fooled..semantics anyway..doesn't really matter

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Correct ... I will use my time in the on-deck circle to time my 'move out' to the pitcher's fastball. In the batter's box I will 'move out' so as to be on time for the fastball. That 'move out' will occur just prior to the pitcher's release. My 'reading of the pitch' will occur in-flight, after having initiated the 'move out' ... and I will adapt based on my 'reading of the pitch'. If I read the pitch correctly as a change-up then I need to "be in my legs" enough to deal with that. This is why I objected to Sluggers post the other day in which it was suggested that the 'move out' took place after knowing what type of pitch you received ... that simply won't work ... the game is too fast for that. There is a reason pros speak of "remaining in their legs" ... the notion of using the legs as "posts" is important ... and not take a wrong turn in terms of driving with their legs prematurely ... if at all.