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julray said:

This is a good baseball swing.. pitch same location

But still the swing has a upward path because the ball still has a downward plane. Would this swing been more applicable in the video I posted, yes.. But still it would not of been the best angle. Why? Because even at this height in baseball it's still traveling downwards. 99.9% of the pitches in baseball are traveling downhill. It's not the same case for Fastpitch..

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The ball in fastpitch is still traveling on a downward path, even for a riseball at the speeds/spin rates riseballs are able to be thrown.

julray said:

You showed me a pic of her with a low pitch.. of course her shoulder tilt is steep, she has to go get it. I seriously doubt she's swinging up through a ball that rising at her waist with any success.

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I couldn't find Hugo hitting anything higher than at the waist but if Hugo (or any good fastpitch player) hit a ball well at a pitch location similar
to the Indians player the swing plane would be very similar..the difference in swing planes to barrel up that pitch for baseball vs. softball would be a few degrees at most.

pattar said:

The ball in fastpitch is still traveling on a downward path, even for a riseball.

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I played both fastpitch and hardball.. a riseball is not on a downward path unless you don't know how to throw a rise ball. It starts below the hip.. or even at the knee and the angle can be adjusted to come across the plate as a high strike or up around your ears. Also you can throw a low strike with a rise ball spin as well, this pitch floats and will not rise or drop, remain at the same level and release point. In the video I posted above, that pitch in fastpitch as a riseball is not even close to the same pitch angle. It's travelling downwards.. big time. In fastpitch curve balls and screwballs tend to have a flat plane.. but can also be on a slight upward plane. Of course pitches can mess with grips and release points to change the trajectory. Hard ball, anything thrown as junk will have a steep downward break.

julray said:

I played both fastpitch and hardball.. a riseball is not on a downward path unless you don't know how to throw a rise ball.

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The physics and data says otherwise julray..

https://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/8272-finally-end-does-riseball-really-rise.html

pattar said:

The physics and data says otherwise julray..

https://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/8272-finally-end-does-riseball-really-rise.html

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Get in the batters box.. have a good pitcher throw a rise ball to you, then tell me it drops 9 inches...LOL. The ball comes up on you in a hurry.. it doesn't drop. What I do disagree with is people who claim the "late rising ball". But that may be due to perception.. not technically possible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga4IB9W2ZWI



Seeing is believing.. but experiencing is a whole new ball game. Seriously, have a hardball pitcher throw you a high fastball.. then have a fastpitch pitcher throw you a riseball in the same location.

Scott Sarginson, Rick Pauly, and others have a great old time thread here that discusses the riseball and that it can not change trajectory to rise. Rather, it doesn't drop as fast as other pitches. I have also played both baseball and fast-pitch softball. I understand the notion that they seem to rise. I believe that physics and the Magnus Effect were discussed in great detail on this site as well.

I contend that there is one swing for both baseball and softball. I have coached that for many years. The difference in philosophy or whatever else you want to call it is that a HL swing is adjustable. It is adjustable in baseball on the up and in pitch as well as softball for the rise. It is adjustable for the drop ball or the slider in baseball. When a hitter can control their core, timing and sequence, they should be able to hit most all pitches. For the riseball, we work on drills off a tee and use the phrase, "hands flat fast." While it might not be the best cue, it is what my hitters understand. If they can control their hip action and resistance while reading the pitch, they can achieve that with an optimum swing to drive the ball.

julray said:

This wouldn't be very effective against a screwball.. or rising curve if a right handed hitter. Any ball that doesn't drop, strike out city! Impossible to match the plane of the ball in Fastpitch with this type of swing. People talk about how chopping down on the ball is ineffective, because the barrel is in the hitting zone for a very short period of time (which I agree with).. I see this swing as equally ineffective against most pitchers in Fastpitch who can throw heat with back or sideways spin. Timing would have to be perfect... it wouldn't be matching the plane of the ball.

3:07-3:08 of this video shows why this swing doesn't work in fastpitch softball for any pitches that doesn't drop or have a downward plane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4Cm5MpjYWc

Strike out city

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What do you think may being emphasized here?

Take note that the trailing arm is simply hanging.

julray said:

Come on pattar, I know he was late. But he's swinging up on a pitch that's rising, which is no different than swinging down on a ball that's dropping. He was late, but with this type of swing his timing would have to be perfect, he would have to intersect that pitch at one point, that's not getting behind and through the ball.

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Are you suggesting that one first view the pitch as 'dropping' or 'rising' and then swing 'up' or 'down'? Not me ... I attack from the top regardless of the pitch.

By the way ... show me a pitch of a 'rise ball' that is still 'rising' as it crosses the plate for what would be a 'called strike'. Very very very rare ... and virtually no one can reproduce such a pitch with any level of consistency.

I am not going to over complicate things, why would I? There are many videos on youtube that show a rise ball.. which rises. Does it take some magically leap in the air that jumps to a higher plane? No. But it does come at you on an upward plane. As displayed in the video I posted above.. they go into physics as well.. but a simple picture tells the story.. I can understand how a batters perception can make it rise more than it actually does though.

CannonB..

For the riseball, we work on drills off a tee and use the phrase, "hands flat fast." While it might not be the best cue, it is what my hitters understand. If they can control their hip action and resistance while reading the pitch, they can achieve that with an optimum swing to drive the ball.

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For fastpitch I believe the hitter needs to think level trajectory and adjust.. for baseball downward trajectory and adjust.

julray said:

That swing is a byproduct of seeing pitches on a downward plane his entire career. He's applying a shoulder tilt that works in baseball.. it's not effective in fastpitch, with exception to maybe a change up/drop ball where the bottom drops out or at lower levels where the pitcher throws much slower and the ball drops. That shoulder tilt would be great for slo-pitch, we need to be careful when posting vids/gifs like this because it can be misleading. That's the point, and I showed a live swing (not just dry) where the baseball approach does not work in fastpitch.

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Where you see "shoulder tilt" I see "torso engine".

That "torso engine" works in 'baseball' and in 'softball'.

pattar said:

So all GOOD baseball swings have the same shoulder tilt regardless of pitch location?? Come on..Also you didn't answer my questions regarding Indians player and Hugo...

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???

Are we still discussing this action here?



I don't even see a bat being swung ... in fact he's not even holding a bat ... the rear arm is virtually 'hanging'. It's simply an over emphasis of the torso engine. People do this to obtain a 'feel' of the 'main engine'.