Biggest lie?

There has to be a stretch between the upper and lower halves.

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Isn't true that we are creating a powerful swing from the ground up starting with our lower half?

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the back knee should basically remain static.

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I don't see how one creates this with loading the top half exclusively

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rdbass said:

There is:

No, 'ground up' swing is a slow swing.

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You don't agree that the sequence starts from the ground with "the move?" That is where I think the sequence of the swing begins.

No, back knee doesn't 'basically remain static'. Back knee/rear leg is 'trying' to IR(internally rotate).

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During "the move?" I understood that during the move a hitter might envision that he/she has a long spike in his/her big toe that is driven into the ground and is resisting the rest of the upper leg from turning which creates tension. I don't think you want the back knee at that point to externally rotate. To clarify, when I said that the knee is basically static, I meant that during "the move" that it (back knee) shouldn't get aligned with the rear foot as a batter is coiling back.

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ORWheels said:

rdbass said:

There is:

You don't agree that the sequence starts from the ground with "the move?" That is where I think the sequence of the swing begins.



During "the move?" I understood that during the move a hitter has a long spike in his/her big toe that is attempting to ER toward the catcher, but the upper leg and hip resist that motion creating tension. I don't think you want the back knee at that point to externally rotate.

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You don't agree that the sequence starts from the ground with "the move?"

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No I don't. Like I said a swing that starts from the ground up is a slow swing. I also don't believe nor use the 'move'.

To suggest THE REAR FOOT OR LEG IS THE ENGINE, the doer, that turns or attempts to turn, at the ground, by creating an external rotation movement of the foot/leg, such that the rear foot turns clockwise for a righthanded batter, is the only way for ground reacton forces to be generated, is 100% NONSENSE.[/QUOTE]

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During "the move?" I understood that during the move a hitter has a long spike in his/her big toe that is attempting to ER toward the catcher, but the upper leg and hip resist that motion creating tension. I don't think you want the back knee at that point to externally rotate.

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Here is what I 'believe' about the 'lower/rear leg:

The rear leg is the driver of the swing, not the hips. The rear leg is loaded by the coil of the hip and the pulling back of the muscles of the back against the leg. A spiral-like load around the rear leg is created. Strong external rotation pressure will be felt by the rear foot at the ground. This pressure is caused by the coiling hip. It is not caused by any external rotation of the leg. In fact, this hip coiling action is countered by the leg's INTERNAL Rotation. A rag wring-like load is created in the rear hip socket. The hip is coiling rearward as the leg tries to turn forward. A bind is created. This means, the rear leg, while attempting to internally rotate actually has strong external rotation pressure applied to it because of the strength of the coiling hip. The rear hip coil is done by the rear hip socket coiling around the ball of the rear femur. The pelvis is a solid bone so the entire pelvis will pivot as this coiling occurs in the rear hip socket. However, the pivot point of the pelvis' turn is the rear hip socket. It is not the center of the pelvis which would happen if the hitter swung around a spinal axis.

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ORWheels said:

So again, I agree with the statement that we shouldn't go too far back or not do it at all, but what about creating separation with the lower half? There has to be a stretch between the upper and lower halves.
I don't see how one creates this with loading the top half exclusively. Isn't true that we are creating a powerful swing from the ground up starting with our lower half?

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rdbass said:

ORWheels said:

No I don't. Like I said a swing that starts from the ground up is a slow swing. I also don't believe nor use the 'move'.

To suggest THE REAR FOOT OR LEG IS THE ENGINE, the does, that turns or attempts to turn, at the ground, by creating an external rotation movement of the foot/leg, such that the rear foot turns clockwise for a righthanded batter, is the only way for ground reacton forces to be generated, is 100% NONSENSE.[/QUOTE]

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Here is what I 'believe' about the 'lower/rear leg:

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I'm on my phone so I may not be reading this right...in your quote you say you don't believe the leg is the engine? Then you say you believe the quote that says the leg is the driver? Isn't that the same?

How is the leg the driver? What makes it drive? Force from the ground or the tension created during the stretch?

Also what exactly is the move I hear about? How does it different from your description that you quoted about leg being the driver....personally of I know what the move is....I see both The Move and the one you described in MLB.

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I'm on my phone so I may not be reading this right...in your quote you say you don't believe the leg is the engine? Then you say you believe the quote that says the leg is the driver? Isn't that the same?

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How is the leg the driver? What makes it drive? Force from the ground or the tension created during the stretch?

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Also what exactly is the move I hear about

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rdbass said:

When you are in your car what are you....the engine or the driver?

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D Up said:

rdbass said:

ORWheels said:

No I don't. Like I said a swing that starts from the ground up is a slow swing. I also don't believe nor use the 'move'.



I'm on my phone so I may not be reading this right...in your quote you say you don't believe the leg is the engine? Then you say you believe the quote that says the leg is the driver? Isn't that the same?

How is the leg the driver? What makes it drive? Force from the ground or the tension created during the stretch?

Also what exactly is the move I hear about? How does it different from your description that you quoted about leg being the driver....personally of I know what the move is....I see both The Move and the one you described in MLB.

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D up,

Here is a post by FFS from January 2011, where he discusses "the move." That particular thread is a great read IMO.

FiveFrameSwing said:

Okay, let's get started.

Looking for two improvements.

One ... let's correct the spinning bug squishing action and build a lower body main engine. Without that, your daughter will continue to be an "arm swinger" and never tap into what should be her main source of power ..... that being a 'connection' to her rotating torso.

Two ... let's clean up the sequence. No more pre-set load. There will only be 'coil' and 'uncoil'. No pauses. During tee swings I want to see a 2:1 ratio ... which basically means that I'm looking for a slow & fluid 'coil' ... as in a smooth gathering of energy ... followed by a much more rapid uncoil. Depending on how far we go with this we'll talk about the timing of the 'thrust' on top of the 'uncoil'. The sequence will be 1) cock the rear hip, basically moving the rear butt check behind her (not back to the catcher, but behind her ... as in twisting her rear right leg); followed by 2) coil & stretch ... and this coil will serve as the source of any forward stride; followed by 3) swing.

Let's start with "the move".

1) Step into the batter's box with the rear foot. In doing so have the bulk of the pressure on the rear foot on the inside 'ball' of the rear foot. That will help serve as a reminder that the ball of the rear foot will serve as a sort of pivot point.

2) Step into the batter's box with the front foot. Be 'balanced' statically. No rearward lean. Have the quads and hamstrings 'dynamically' balanced ... that is the legs are bent, and the quads & hams are opposing each other ... they are 'balanced' in opposition ... they are 'dynamically balanced' ... they are activated. The upper body will have a slight lean forward ... just enough to 'activate' the upper torso.

3) Using the muscles in the rear upper leg ... cock the rear hip. This may feel like the rear leg is being twisted. Being a right handed hitter, your daughter should feel a pressure that travels down to the rear foot which will give her the feel that the rear foot "wants" to turn "clockwise" ... but it is resisted from turning clockwise because of friction between her cleat & the ground. Feel that "clockwise" pressure. Don't go any further until you feel that "clockwise" pressure as if the "inside" portion of the rear foot has a pressure between it and the ground, that would have the rear foot turning "clockwise". You need to "feel" that if we are going to proceed.

4) Continue to coil. To do this your daughter may recruit her frontside. She may turn her front knee inward. She may internally rotate her front foot. She may/should bend more at the waist (anterior tilt), which will assist the coil and load the lower back muscles for the upcoming rotation that is to take place. During this time, feel the continued "pressure" between the "ground" and the "rear foot". There is a build-up in pressure trying to turn it "clockwise" ... but because of the resistance the foot will remain planted ... yet the pressure build-up will continue. As you continue to coil, the pressure by the rear foot will become more active, and will push ... a push as in adding pressure that would turn the foot "clockwise", but because the rear foot is restricted from moving ... AND because the coiling action is still occurring, the body will move forward ... this is the 'stride' ... we refer to this as "forward by coiling". There is a "dynamic balance" established between the "coiling" taking place and the "clockwise" pressure at the rear foot resisting/opposing that coil.

5) As the front foot moves to foot plant the "rear leg" will "uncoil" ... that is it will "untwist". The pressure at the back foot will continue to be a "clockwise" pressure. The "feel" from a hitter's perspective is that the "clockwise" pressure will continue to be exerted in a "clockwise" direction until "contact", although in reality it is only until rear foot eversion.

6) In terms of the lower body, have the mindset of the "rear leg" being in charge. It's "coil" and "uncoil". Simply allow the front leg to catch the body. Take whatever stride "results" from the "coil" ... that is, do not force a particular stride and do not purposely stride linearly so as to bypass the 'coil' & 'uncoil' action of the rear leg.

What I would like your daughter to do is work on "coil" and "uncoil" ... starting the action with the muscles in the upper rear leg ... feel the "rear leg" twisting/coiling and feel the build up of "clockwise" pressure at the rear foot. Allow a slow and fluid 'coil' to allow the build-up of that "clockwise" pressure and maintain a "clockwise" pressure at the rear foot during the "uncoiling" of the "rear leg". Keep that "clockwise" pressure sensation of the rear foot until the rear hip pulls the rear foot forward off the ground. Do this ... and the bug squish will be gone ... and your daughter will be on her way to building a lower body that is worth "connecting" to.

Keep working on 'coil' and 'uncoil'. Use the 2:1 ratio. Get to the point where the bug squishing is long gone and the "feel" is that of a slow & fluid gathering of energy to explode/uncoil.

Good luck ... and be patient.

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