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Thread: Ferris wheel or merry go round?

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    Softball Junkie Shawn's Avatar
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    Default Ferris wheel or merry go round?



    Which one do you teach? ferris wheel or merry-go-round?
    "It is hard to fill a cup that is already full"

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    Always learning... Eric F's Avatar
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    Tilt-a-whirl.

    I see the barrel getting parallel with the line of the shoulders, but the angle of that line tilts depending on pitch location.
    A TB parent's life...Drive. Write checks. Eat tacos.

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    Bacon Buttermaker's Avatar
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    Def ferris wheel for me. Hands set the plane - shoulders are bypassed.

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    Softball Junkie Shawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttermaker View Post
    Def ferris wheel for me. Hands set the plane - shoulders are bypassed.
    Do you believe in only the ferris wheel, or would you agree it's a combination of both?

    I don't think anything is bypassed.
    "It is hard to fill a cup that is already full"

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    Always learning... Eric F's Avatar
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    Something redhotcoach said a long time ago (he's the first one I heard it from)..."Back shoulder delivers the hands"...made sense to me. When I look at MLB hitters, it still does.

    Cabrera - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McVrac2lYgI
    Cano - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpCXExsHYdc
    Correa - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_vEJu3jmpw
    Bryant - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtZkAMe6gDk
    Encarnacion - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99BfVIwuYg4
    Posey - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxyuDhK_XLU
    Harper - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA9RjMRRBjM
    Stanton - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OlvnENvYz4

    Also...Maybe I don't really understand what "shoulder bypass" means (very possible), but I don't see the rear shoulder being left out of the equation.
    A TB parent's life...Drive. Write checks. Eat tacos.

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    Bacon Buttermaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
    Do you believe in only the ferris wheel, or would you agree it's a combination of both?

    I don't think anything is bypassed.
    Shoulders are bypassed in the sense that they are not force creators. Said another way the torso should not be providing the turning impetus. The torso resists as the rear leg turns it forward. Rich's oscillating fan is a really good analogy.

    The fan blades are the barrel and the mechanism that turns the fan is the rear leg.


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    It wasn't me. rdbass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttermaker View Post
    Shoulders are bypassed in the sense that they are not force creators. Said another way the torso should not be providing the turning impetus. The torso resists as the rear leg turns it forward. Rich's oscillating fan is a really good analogy.

    The fan blades are the barrel and the mechanism that turns the fan is the rear leg.












    Here is TM words:
    When you do not first find the giddyup when analyzing swings you make analysis mistakes. The first mistake made is the swing plane.

    A high level swing plane is swung about the hands.
    An amateur swing plane is swung about the spine.

    My two fans above represent the difference in what we teach. I teach an oscillating fan. Leach teaches a box fan. Lets explore the two.

    If I am a box fan, ( theory) the axis of my barrel's rotation is my spine. I rotate the hips and shoulders . I adjust to pitch height by bending/unbending at my waist. See the box fan image above. The fan spins about the center axis and is a mostly horizontal plane (represents the shoulder plane) and the plane can be pivoted up and down by bend of the torso. This technique has very limited adjustability, to the point that it is unusable in a high level batters box. If you have to adjust your posture before you can launch your swing YOU HAVE A MAJOR SLOP MOVE that all pitchers will exploit. The key word here is BEFORE. Before you swing. That is problem #1. Problem #2 is the spinal swing plane can not deal with an outside pitch or and inside pitch. If I throw a wad of paper into the box fan and it is inside it will hook foul. If I throw a wad a paper into the box fan and it is outside it will flare it to the opposite field. Only when the ball comes to a small area down central will I be able to square it up and hit a line drive. On top of that, try rotating the hip/shoulders hard and not pull off the ball. It is automatic pull off. How do you hit an outside pitch hard when the energy developed by hip and shoulder rotation pulls you away from the ball? The adjustability is very very poor and the launch can not be sudden because it requires a torso bend up or down for pitch height PRIOR TO LAUNCH on way too many pitches. It absolutely can not work against good pitching. It is totally busted by high level pitching.

    If I am an osciallting fan, (HI.com theory....and truth) the axis of my barrel's rotation is my hands/forearms. Note the perpendicular relationship between the barrel and the rear forearm in all great hitters. The lasering concept IS the rotation of the hands/forearms quickly. With an oscillating fan I have a mostly diagonal swing plane that 'they' call dump when it gets too vertical, like for the ball down and in. This swing plane can swing THROUGH every pitch location and square every ball without pull off. This swing plane can deliver all of the energy into the baseball. Directly. Done well it will not flare balls to the opposite field. It will not slice them. It will square them up. A hitter will follow through directly through the ball and into ball flight. If done well it will not hook the inside pitch foul. It will square it up and it will follow through directly into ball flight. No hook whatsoever. Of course down central is meat and easy. Requires no adjustment at all.

    The lasering of the knob represents the bat being swung about the hands/forearms. Quickly. Instantly. It is part of an oscillating fan technique. The arc created by that forearm turn IS THE SWING PLANE. And the barrel is launched INSTANTLY....all in....REARWARD. It is speeding and fully energized at the point they call dump. Dump insinuates slow sluggish and out of plane. NONSENSE. It is flying at the point they call dump. AND....it is on plane. They refuse to admit that. A well launched diagonal plane is ALWAYS on plane. At the back or bottom of the swing plane, where they claim dump, they don't understand that the barrel is already up to speed. They claim the barrel is dumped and THEN brought up to speed by the rotation of the torso. They couldn't be more wrong. When the barrel is turned rearward all in, instantly, launched and spent rearward, that rearward resistance causes the rear leg that is SnF loaded to snap. It is an instantaneous snap of BOTH the hands and the rear leg. They claim it is not launched. They claim it is lagging waiting to be launched. They couldn't be more wrong. They believe that you have to set swing plane then launch. ABSOLUTELY NOT. That is slop. That is a swing full of slop. In Leach's video he conveniently avoided the part of the demo where I demonstrated the launch and plane are a simultaneous move...and therefore....for a very large part of the zone...a hitter IS ALWAYS ON PLANE, even in his stance, BEFORE HE SWINGS...and therefore doesn't' require a swing plane adjustment before launch. He simply swivels the knob, lasers the knob in the direction of the ball. He swivels at the angle that takes the barrel to the ball. NO OTHER ADJUSTMENT IS NECESSARY.

    The advantage of the diagonal swing plane over the spinal horizontal swing plane is HUGE. And quite obvious if you swing to duplicate.

    They don't understand that the spine is not involved, therefore they don't understand that the barrel is already launched and speeding at top speed long before they get the barrel up to speed in their own swing therefore they make continuous analogy mistakes. They refuse to find the giddyup first.

    The oscillating fan technique has a pedestal (rear leg) that pivots the diagonal swing plane from outside to middle to inside pitches WITHOUT THOUGHT. It pivots much like the oscillating fan pivots. Without an extra move. So with the diagonal plane, which covers all 'strike' heights without adjustment by lasering, the rear leg pivots that diagonal plane simultaneously into the pitch, if necessary. It does not require an extra move.

    The EXTRA MOVE is REQUIRED in Leach's theory. He can not swing until his fan pivots up or down to get proper plane height. In the high level pattern there is no such extra move. The launch is sudden. Instant. You simply turn the barrel into a rearward arc by lasering (pivoting the barrel about the hands instantly) creating an arc that is in line with the pitch. Height and width are adjusted at the same time. Simultaneously. It's an amazing technique.
    Last edited by rdbass; 02-09-2018 at 08:09 AM.
    I don't know sh!t from shinola!

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    Certified softball maniac corlay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdbass View Post

    Here is TM words:
    [...] With an oscillating fan I have a mostly diagonal swing plane that 'they' call dump when it gets too vertical, like for the ball down and in.[...]
    thanks for posting this.
    the idea of "dump" is a confusing one to sort out.
    if you DBSF, that is a "dump" that *precedes* the launch of the swing.
    if you instantaneously then the barrel rearward, and downward for a low inside pitch, I agree that is something different than "dump".

    This is the first post I've read here that addresses the false claims of "dump" in the type of swing that is primarily advocated for here in this forum.

    What I would like someone to address further,
    is that when facing a good, sternum-high riseball,
    what are the successful adjustments made in a 'turn the barrel rearward" type of swing?

    thanks.

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    Certified softball maniac FP26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttermaker View Post
    Shoulders are bypassed in the sense that they are not force creators. Said another way the torso should not be providing the turning impetus. The torso resists as the rear leg turns it forward. Rich's oscillating fan is a really good analogy.

    The fan blades are the barrel and the mechanism that turns the fan is the rear leg.

    Force creators? No. But how the shoulders move (or are moved) has a lot to do with where the barrel will ultimately go. IMO, this can be demonstrated very well by the neck slot drill you have talked about before.
    "Once you stop learning, you start dying" -- Albert Einstein.

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    Bacon Buttermaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by corlay View Post
    thanks for posting this.
    the idea of "dump" is a confusing one to sort out.
    if you DBSF, that is a "dump" that *precedes* the launch of the swing.
    if you instantaneously then the barrel rearward, and downward for a low inside pitch, I agree that is something different than "dump".

    This is the first post I've read here that addresses the false claims of "dump" in the type of swing that is primarily advocated for here in this forum.

    What I would like someone to address further,
    is that when facing a good, sternum-high riseball,
    what are the successful adjustments made in a 'turn the barrel rearward" type of swing?

    thanks.


    Many get lost when not counting on the forearms/hands to set the barrel's plane immediately. It's not about the shoulders

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