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Jul 16, 2013
4,659
113
Pennsylvania
As I read more and more threads on DFP, there are three names that are consistently mentioned; Swingbuilder, Hitter, and Teacherman. Can anyone provide a brief description of their theories and how they differ from each other? Please note that I am not a member of any camp, and I am really not interested in a debate over who is better than whom. Just looking for some differentiation. While we are at it, where does Donny Buster fit in? Thanks in advance for your input.
 
Jan 13, 2012
693
0
As I read more and more threads on DFP, there are three names that are consistently mentioned; Swingbuilder, Hitter, and Teacherman. Can anyone provide a brief description of their theories and how they differ from each other? Please note that I am not a member of any camp, and I am really not interested in a debate over who is better than whom. Just looking for some differentiation. While we are at it, where does Donny Buster fit in? Thanks in advance for your input.

This is a really long story, but here's a brief summary.

Teacherman runs HI (Hitting Illustrated). I don't believe the links are allowed here, but the majority of stuff we talk about here (the corner, swivel/barrel turn, shift and swing vs. shift then swing, lower back pull back, etc., etc.) was either popularized or discovered by Teacherman. Swivel to me is much like top hand torque, but whereas Mankin talks about the rotation of the shoulders, Teacherman talks about the rotation (supination and pronation) of the forearms. Teacherman used to be a Steve Englishbey follower before one of two things happened, depending on which side you believe. Personally, I believe side 2, but that's just me.

Side 1: Teacherman sent a letter to Englishbey saying that he wanted to start a hitting academy. Englishbey said "no" and Teacherman broke away. HI is formed.

Side 2: Teacherman finds the swivel while watching a clip of JD Drew, and then is subsequently banned from Englishbey Hitting. HI is formed.

Regardless of which you believe, a bloody "hitting war" broke out between HI supporters and everyone else. That war can be seen on other sites, but has mainly ended by now. I don't think anyone really cares to restart it, and most of the key players in it (Mark H, among others) have moved on from the hitting forums.

Swingbuilder helped start HI with Donny Buster and Teacherman. He's been in professional baseball for a long, long time. I don't know the full story, but I'll tell you what I know. He and Teacherman worked together and set up a clinic in Atlanta (I think this is 2009). Anyway, Swingbuilder starts working with three hitters, conveniently named Hitters 1, 2, and 3. Some know their names, but the internet is a scary place and I'd prefer not to publicize their identities. Anyway, Swingbuilder works with these hitters for awhile (I don't know how long). Teacherman claims they're not high-level, Swingbuilder pushes back, etc.,etc. Anyway, Swingbuilder leaves HI.

So a brief summary is in order at this point:

Teacherman: One legged hitting, swivel, coil, SnF, Shift AND Swing, pull backs.
Swingbuilder: One legged hitting, top hand swivel only, SnF, "The Move," Shift AND swing.

The two are only really differentiated by when they say to coil and their belief in the move. The move is basically an action with the foot that Swingbuilder claims enhances the rear leg breaking down and in, while Teacherman claims it causes a push. I've never really focused on the foot, so I stand in the "I don't think it matters" box, and I think that's the prevailing theory today.

Teacherman believes in an early coil (pre-set in stance) with the "click back" turning open the pelvis as you move forward. Swingbuilder believes in "late coil" (i.e. not in the stance, when the pitcher releases the ball) and that the Move drives the rear leg to open the pelvis. Teacherman believes in an active scap pinch, SB believes that the scap is pinched when the "Load in the Unload occurs."

Donny Buster introduced the concept of SnF to baseball, but a lot of his material has been either superseded by newer developments or refined due to newer discoveries. For example, Donny Buster's presentation has him advocating a 50-50 weight distribution after the stride. Now, we know to keep the weight back until the swing transfers it. Also, Donny Buster believed in hemispheric separation causing SnF, whereas it's now taught that SnF is a function of proper stretch around the rear hip.

Hitter is Howard Carrier. I'm not equipped to discuss his beliefs on hitting. SBFamily or Straightleg know much more about his hitting system than I do.
 
Oct 10, 2011
1,572
38
Pacific Northwest
This is a really long story, but here's a brief summary.

Teacherman runs HI (Hitting Illustrated). I don't believe the links are allowed here, but the majority of stuff we talk about here (the corner, swivel/barrel turn, shift and swing vs. shift then swing, lower back pull back, etc., etc.) was either popularized or discovered by Teacherman. Swivel to me is much like top hand torque, but whereas Mankin talks about the rotation of the shoulders, Teacherman talks about the rotation (supination and pronation) of the forearms. Teacherman used to be a Steve Englishbey follower before one of two things happened, depending on which side you believe. Personally, I believe side 2, but that's just me.

Side 1: Teacherman sent a letter to Englishbey saying that he wanted to start a hitting academy. Englishbey said "no" and Teacherman broke away. HI is formed.

Side 2: Teacherman finds the swivel while watching a clip of JD Drew, and then is subsequently banned from Englishbey Hitting. HI is formed.

Regardless of which you believe, a bloody "hitting war" broke out between HI supporters and everyone else. That war can be seen on other sites, but has mainly ended by now. I don't think anyone really cares to restart it, and most of the key players in it (Mark H, among others) have moved on from the hitting forums.

Swingbuilder helped start HI with Donny Buster and Teacherman. He's been in professional baseball for a long, long time. I don't know the full story, but I'll tell you what I know. He and Teacherman worked together and set up a clinic in Atlanta (I think this is 2009). Anyway, Swingbuilder starts working with three hitters, conveniently named Hitters 1, 2, and 3. Some know their names, but the internet is a scary place and I'd prefer not to publicize their identities. Anyway, Swingbuilder works with these hitters for awhile (I don't know how long). Teacherman claims they're not high-level, Swingbuilder pushes back, etc.,etc. Anyway, Swingbuilder leaves HI.

So a brief summary is in order at this point:

Teacherman: One legged hitting, swivel, coil, SnF, Shift AND Swing, pull backs.
Swingbuilder: One legged hitting, top hand swivel only, SnF, "The Move," Shift AND swing.

The two are only really differentiated by when they say to coil and their belief in the move. The move is basically an action with the foot that Swingbuilder claims enhances the rear leg breaking down and in, while Teacherman claims it causes a push. I've never really focused on the foot, so I stand in the "I don't think it matters" box, and I think that's the prevailing theory today.

Teacherman believes in an early coil (pre-set in stance) with the "click back" turning open the pelvis as you move forward. Swingbuilder believes in "late coil" (i.e. not in the stance, when the pitcher releases the ball) and that the Move drives the rear leg to open the pelvis. Teacherman believes in an active scap pinch, SB believes that the scap is pinched when the "Load in the Unload occurs."

Donny Buster introduced the concept of SnF to baseball, but a lot of his material has been either superseded by newer developments or refined due to newer discoveries. For example, Donny Buster's presentation has him advocating a 50-50 weight distribution after the stride. Now, we know to keep the weight back until the swing transfers it. Also, Donny Buster believed in hemispheric separation causing SnF, whereas it's now taught that SnF is a function of proper stretch around the rear hip.

Hitter is Howard Carrier. I'm not equipped to discuss his beliefs on hitting. SBFamily or Straightleg know much more about his hitting system than I do.

The part in bold above, is enough to start another war:)

wight at satOrtiz_050513_side-0.00.02.16.jpg

I still like 50 50. at sat


I will delete my post, because I very much would like others to post information about other gurus, and their(the gurus) beliefs and teachings.
 
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Greenmonsters

Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
Feb 21, 2009
6,168
38
New England
FP26 - Well now that you know about HI and SB, I suggest that its well worth your time to do a DFP search for posts by "Hitter" to find exactly what and how Howard Carrier teaches female fastpitch hitters.
 
Aug 4, 2008
2,364
0
Lexington,Ohio
Howard also worked with male hitters. He has worked closely with Don Slaught and right View Pro. I think we learn from everyone. Dave Paetkau is an excellent hitting coach and many post Jen Yee up there with Bustos as having one of the best swings in softball. Hi today has a great post on the bipod, it reminds me of Bustos doing her box demo. Everyone has a way to teach, but the bottom line they are in most cases saying the same thing, but have a different demo. I read at least five different hitting sites, just to see how someone else teaches. I think softball is harder, because of the bunting and slapping part of the game. If anyone has taught slapping you will understand the practice needed to perfect it. What I don't like about HI is the baiting. Why would anyone attack a kid that is being very succesful playing D1 softball and batting#4 on a ranked team. If it was my kid I would brag all the time.
 
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As I read more and more threads on DFP, there are three names that are consistently mentioned; Swingbuilder, Hitter, and Teacherman. Can anyone provide a brief description of their theories and how they differ from each other? Please note that I am not a member of any camp, and I am really not interested in a debate over who is better than whom. Just looking for some differentiation. While we are at it, where does Donny Buster fit in? Thanks in advance for your input.


While I think you had a noble expectation of reliable and accurate responses. Eventually the cream rises to the top and people start getting personal. Pstein did a nice job of summarizing some things. Good luck with your journey fp26. Unfortunately everyone here has an opinion (hard to sort through the bs).
 

Cannonball

Ex "Expert"
Feb 25, 2009
4,854
113
I'll stay out of this if possible with the exception that Pstein's opinion on Schenck and Englishbey is inaccurate. BTW, I don't think Pstein in intentionally misrepresenting anything. I know what happened because I was a part of it. First hand knowledge and so not just an opinion. Englishbey and his "Posse" included many posters who frequented multiple sites. As Steve made clear on his site, I was never a member of his "posse." Anyway, I did see a copy of the email where Scheck wanted to go into business with Englishbey. That's a fact. I read it first hand. However, it was much more than that. First and foremost, Englishbey said from day one that PCR was not a hitting system. Scheck never understood that. In response, Englishbey made a thread entitled "What the hell is PCR." It clearly outlined those points I've tried to make so many times on public websites. Englishbey was trying to build his business and website and while a member of the "Posse," Scheck continued to attack members on other sites as well as on Englishbey's site. Englishbey wanted him to stop. Scheck points to a communication where Englishbey made a comment about Scheck knowing his stuff as good as anyone and so, he represented Englishbey's methods/philosophy accurately. What Scheck never mentions is that Englishbey posted on his site a rebuke to Scheck where he stated that he never understood what he was saying once Scheck met him in person. Schenck refused to stop the attack on people and so, Englishbey gave him the boot. Not a week later, Scheck had a mea culpa moment where he denounced Englishbey and jumped into the other camp. From there everything and everyone associated with Englishbey Hitting including myself was trashed. From there those original members of HI found fault in what Scheck taught and broke off. Some real good people in that group who had kids who played at very high levels.

Per myself, I am not a member of Englishbey's site anymore. I do consider Steve a friend but have not talked to him in a couple of years. We once talked once a week. So, I make this post for the sake of honesty and clarity of what transpired at that time.

As an FYI, I consider Schenck to be an enemy. I despise him and will pay someday when I meet my maker because I bear deep hatred for the - I can't call him a man. So, take that for what it is worth.
 
Jan 13, 2012
693
0
If I've misrepresented anything, it's completely accidental. I was 11 when HI was founded and the HI vs. everyone else stuff started.

However, I will say that Teacherman didn't completely go away from PCR when he discovered/developed the swivel. For at least a year, he believed that the high level swing was swivel with a PCR lower body. PCR lower body means hip rotation- I'm not trying to talk about PCR, as I don't know much about it outside of what I've read on Setpro.
 
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