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Cannonball

Ex "Expert"
Feb 25, 2009
4,854
113
... and the only thing more ironic is that Englishbey was talking about the "Tilted/twisted tornado" 5 years ago. TBao, nice diagram explaining some of what Englishbey was talking about back then. I haven't been on his site for a couple of years now and so, don't pretend to speak for him.

Pstein, I hope you noticed that I mentioned that I didn't think you intentionally misrepresented anything. In fact, I enjoyed your post.
 
May 24, 2013
12,461
113
So Cal
Unfortunately, for those of us who are relatively new to the party, all the bad blood that spilled before has mucked up the water. More often than not, hitting discussions melt down into personal character attacks, and quality information (whether you agree with it or not) is difficult to filter out.
 
Jul 16, 2013
4,659
113
Pennsylvania
I agree Eric. I have started this very same thread about a dozen times but deleted it before I posted it for fear it would start a mud slinging contest. However, I have been quite pleased with the discussion. When I first started making my own posts, I made some mistakes by raising questions or mentioning topics that were against certain ideals. Those posts were typically met by a few sarcastic posts that I did not understand (but was quite sure were an inside joke of some sort). When I would ask for clarification, it was typically met with silence. As I started to dig deeper into the archives, I started to learn what can be discussed and what should be avoided. Ultimately, I have been very impressed with the level of knowledge on DFP, and the willingness of many to share that knowledge with an average Joe like myself. I have learned a great deal and look forward to continuing that journey.
 

Greenmonsters

Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
Feb 21, 2009
6,168
38
New England
Unfortunately, for those of us who are relatively new to the party, all the bad blood that spilled before has mucked up the water. More often than not, hitting discussions melt down into personal character attacks, and quality information (whether you agree with it or not) is difficult to filter out.

This is why you see the frequent recommendation made to swing the bat and try things yourself. Unfortunately, its just not that simple as exemplified by even the most accomplished and highly compensated MLB players and hitting instructors providing explanations/guidance that conflicts or does not coincide with their game swings upon video review.
 
Jan 13, 2012
693
0
Pstein, I hope you noticed that I mentioned that I didn't think you intentionally misrepresented anything. In fact, I enjoyed your post.

Thank you. I made an additional post on it because people have a tendency to take small portions of posts and attack others without paying heed to the context.
 
Jun 17, 2009
15,105
0
Portland, OR
Unfortunately, for those of us who are relatively new to the party, all the bad blood that spilled before has mucked up the water. More often than not, hitting discussions melt down into personal character attacks, and quality information (whether you agree with it or not) is difficult to filter out.

Discussions of differences can help some improve their understanding.
 
Nov 25, 2012
1,437
83
USA
This is a really long story, but here's a brief summary.

Teacherman runs HI (Hitting Illustrated). I don't believe the links are allowed here, but the majority of stuff we talk about here (the corner, swivel/barrel turn, shift and swing vs. shift then swing, lower back pull back, etc., etc.) was either popularized or discovered by Teacherman. Swivel to me is much like top hand torque, but whereas Mankin talks about the rotation of the shoulders, Teacherman talks about the rotation (supination and pronation) of the forearms. Teacherman used to be a Steve Englishbey follower before one of two things happened, depending on which side you believe. Personally, I believe side 2, but that's just me.

Side 1: Teacherman sent a letter to Englishbey saying that he wanted to start a hitting academy. Englishbey said "no" and Teacherman broke away. HI is formed.

Side 2: Teacherman finds the swivel while watching a clip of JD Drew, and then is subsequently banned from Englishbey Hitting. HI is formed.

Regardless of which you believe, a bloody "hitting war" broke out between HI supporters and everyone else. That war can be seen on other sites, but has mainly ended by now. I don't think anyone really cares to restart it, and most of the key players in it (Mark H, among others) have moved on from the hitting forums.

Swingbuilder helped start HI with Donny Buster and Teacherman. He's been in professional baseball for a long, long time. I don't know the full story, but I'll tell you what I know. He and Teacherman worked together and set up a clinic in Atlanta (I think this is 2009). Anyway, Swingbuilder starts working with three hitters, conveniently named Hitters 1, 2, and 3. Some know their names, but the internet is a scary place and I'd prefer not to publicize their identities. Anyway, Swingbuilder works with these hitters for awhile (I don't know how long). Teacherman claims they're not high-level, Swingbuilder pushes back, etc.,etc. Anyway, Swingbuilder leaves HI.

So a brief summary is in order at this point:

Teacherman: One legged hitting, swivel, coil, SnF, Shift AND Swing, pull backs.
Swingbuilder: One legged hitting, top hand swivel only, SnF, "The Move," Shift AND swing.

The two are only really differentiated by when they say to coil and their belief in the move. The move is basically an action with the foot that Swingbuilder claims enhances the rear leg breaking down and in, while Teacherman claims it causes a push. I've never really focused on the foot, so I stand in the "I don't think it matters" box, and I think that's the prevailing theory today.

Teacherman believes in an early coil (pre-set in stance) with the "click back" turning open the pelvis as you move forward. Swingbuilder believes in "late coil" (i.e. not in the stance, when the pitcher releases the ball) and that the Move drives the rear leg to open the pelvis. Teacherman believes in an active scap pinch, SB believes that the scap is pinched when the "Load in the Unload occurs."

Donny Buster introduced the concept of SnF to baseball, but a lot of his material has been either superseded by newer developments or refined due to newer discoveries. For example, Donny Buster's presentation has him advocating a 50-50 weight distribution after the stride. Now, we know to keep the weight back until the swing transfers it. Also, Donny Buster believed in hemispheric separation causing SnF, whereas it's now taught that SnF is a function of proper stretch around the rear hip.

Hitter is Howard Carrier. I'm not equipped to discuss his beliefs on hitting. SBFamily or Straightleg know much more about his hitting system than I do.

How did I miss this one over the years.......good stuff and explains alot.
 
Sep 7, 2017
187
18
Howard also worked with male hitters. He has worked closely with Don Slaught and right View Pro. I think we learn from everyone. Dave Paetkau is an excellent hitting coach and many post Jen Yee up there with Bustos as having one of the best swings in softball. Hi today has a great post on the bipod, it reminds me of Bustos doing her box demo. Everyone has a way to teach, but the bottom line they are in most cases saying the same thing, but have a different demo. I read at least five different hitting sites, just to see how someone else teaches. I think softball is harder, because of the bunting and slapping part of the game. If anyone has taught slapping you will understand the practice needed to perfect it. What I don't like about HI is the baiting. Why would anyone attack a kid that is being very succesful playing D1 softball and batting#4 on a ranked team. If it was my kid I would brag all the time.

Carrier is nothing like any of the other Hitting instructors at HI or Swingbuilder. not even close.

Whats the story of Carrier making fun of the handicapped kid and getting banned? Id like to know what happened there?
 
Jun 17, 2009
15,105
0
Portland, OR
Carrier is nothing like any of the other Hitting instructors at HI or Swingbuilder. not even close.

Whats the story of Carrier making fun of the handicapped kid and getting banned? Id like to know what happened there?

Just a thought .... drama tends to pollute the website (i.e., add unimportant content) and makes it more difficult for folks to extract useful information.
 

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