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RayR

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When I say rear leg I am mostly referring the upper leg and hip rear hip joint....and really the muscles in that area....there is assistance from the ground as well as assistance in the muscles in your back down to your arse...

But, regardless all you have to do is try it the way I said....the rear leg / hip joint drive the hips....throw a ball, swing the bat....feel it.

Why would you want to pull the rear leg around with your hips...seems tiresome....



The rear hip and rear leg do not fuse.

We (me, you and rhc) are saying basically the same thing. Or, at least, we agree that the hip has a ball joint connecting the leg.

Where we have a difference of opinion is that the rear leg (primarily) drives the hip. I believe the hip (primarily) pulls the leg. Although that is not the hip's main objective, but rather an effect.

Try this: lay down on your side and rotate the hip forward, using the hip. Did you need your leg to do that? The leg internally rotated; not on it's own primarily, and not because it is fused to the hip, but because of the muscular structure involved in the hip turning action.

Perhaps we are putting too much emphasis on the skeletal support. It's the muscles that should be the focus.
 

redhotcoach

Out on good behavior
May 8, 2009
4,706
38
The rear hip and rear leg do not fuse.

We (me, you and rhc) are saying basically the same thing. Or, at least, we agree that the hip has a ball joint connecting the leg.

Where we have a difference of opinion is that the rear leg (primarily) drives the hip. I believe the hip (primarily) pulls the leg. Although that is not the hip's main objective, but rather an effect.

Try this: lay down on your side and rotate the hip forward, using the hip. Did you need your leg to do that? The leg internally rotated; not on it's own primarily, and not because it is fused to the hip, but because of the muscular structure involved in the hip turning action.

Perhaps we are putting too much emphasis on the skeletal support. It's the muscles that should be the focus.

That difference is as big of difference as I think you could have in a swing.
 
Oct 25, 2009
3,345
48
When I say rear leg I am mostly referring the upper leg and hip rear hip joint....and really the muscles in that area....there is assistance from the ground as well as assistance in the muscles in your back down to your arse...

But, regardless all you have to do is try it the way I said....the rear leg / hip joint drive the hips....throw a ball, swing the bat....feel it.

Why would you want to pull the rear leg around with your hips...seems tiresome....


We're describing the same thing. I feel it with my hip/hip joint, also. Pulling the leg is not the point of emphasis; it's the smoke that's left after the gun fires, if you will.
 
Oct 25, 2009
3,345
48
That difference is as big of difference as I think you could have in a swing.

That's very true. I don't want to give the batter a cue of driving the leg (pushing the hip). The active rear leg drive is out of it quickly after it does its critical initiation of the swing. Very quickly! Then the action transitions to the hip area.

PS: Transition to the hip area happens much faster than you can say "transition". I can't think of a better word at the moment.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2009
3,345
48
Maybe leg kick instead of leg drive would fill our communication gap. Especially when one considers the hamstring action of the rear leg.
 

HYP

Nov 17, 2012
427
0
The rear hip rotates to the ball, the rear leg is pulled in that direction. Notice the singular, hip. The front hip action is a result of the rear hip move. Much simpler for the hip to attack the target.

Honestly, I hate the word rotate. The rear hip moves as straight as it can directional through the ball.
 
Oct 10, 2011
1,572
38
Pacific Northwest
Rotate definitions....to cause to turn or move about an axis or a center....To proceed in sequence;...
Rotation.......a regular cycle of events in a set order or sequence ..........to proceed in a fixed routine of succession..

I could go on, but about the only thing lineal, is the bat.

Hyp, you have good stuff sometimes, but i have to wonder, no slo mo video, you hate rotation, Are you not old school per say, but from the era of astro turf?

from some on this site, and others i have learned good stuff, stretch, seperation, coil uncoil, a good bat path, but not much seems to be what you propose.
Can i see some students that you work with?? because there are so many different ways to get to the same place, maybe you have a great rapor that works with your students, and your cues work better than the ones i have learned from others.
 
Mar 12, 2009
556
0
I think this happens a lot on here but I truly believe softballphreak, RHC, and MTS are all meaning the same exact thing but one uses a different way of saying it and it turns into medical terms and gets extremely technical. I may be wrong but if they were all together I think they would all agree it's more the hip joint/upper leg that fires. To me and maybe even SP that's the same thing as saying the hip in general. So, everyone's on the same page but it just gets all twisted and then everyone's confused or at least beginners.
 

HYP

Nov 17, 2012
427
0
Rotate definitions....to cause to turn or move about an axis or a center....To proceed in sequence;...
Rotation.......a regular cycle of events in a set order or sequence ..........to proceed in a fixed routine of succession..

I could go on, but about the only thing lineal, is the bat.

Hyp, you have good stuff sometimes, but i have to wonder, no slo mo video, you hate rotation, Are you not old school per say, but from the era of astro turf?

from some on this site, and others i have learned good stuff, stretch, seperation, coil uncoil, a good bat path, but not much seems to be what you propose.
Can i see some students that you work with?? because there are so many different ways to get to the same place, maybe you have a great rapor that works with your students, and your cues work better than the ones i have learned from others.

The definition of rotation makes you envision around, circular. If i create a circular path with my hips then they will pul my hands in a circular path.. How can I have circular hips, circular hand path and a linear bat?

Look at these clips and tell me if Bautista's rear hip is going out and around, as in circular, as in rotational?

bautistaoverheadzoom_zpsf42ad6e8.gif


bautistaresist_zps70ed304d.gif


Or is it coiling back and trying to stay coiled so it can follow a linear path? If he were to coil it and then uncoil it. The rear hip would reverse direction of the coil and it would go out and around.

Does it not look like everything is pivoting around the rear hip as the rear hip moves forward?

That is why I do not like rotate the hips. It gives the impression that you are just turning the hips closed to just turn them open. That is not very powerful or sudden and it is filled with slop/slack.

That is why I like coil and coil some more. The coil is maintained. In fact it just continues to coil so that the rear hip can come around from inside.

Try this. Get a piece of paper and a pencil/pen. Lets use a right hand hitter in this demo. Place the tip of the pen down like you are getting ready to write on the paper. Where the pen is that represents the rear hip. Now start to draw a circle in the direction the rear hip coils (clockwise). Keep coming around the circle. Once you complete a quarter circle, which way is the rear hip moving? It should be headed towards the infield. At any point once you reach the quarter turn position of the pen you can direct that line through the ball. Now, the rear hip is directing energy from the inside. IMO, the rear hip continues to coil so it can take a direct path through the ball.

If you do the same exercise as above but when you get to the quarter turn point and then reverse that on the same path and take it around counter clockwise. That would be hip rotation. That puts the hip out and around the ball.

Best I can do to explain myself.

Not the era of astro turf. I was a teenager in the 80's. I watch slo mo video but I am not a fan of putting together a whole hitting plan based on slo mo video and forgetting what created those mechanics. Forgetting what the player who you are watching did in practice to get there.

Nope, I will not post a student here. Just don't need to. If what I say doesn't make sense. Then my students will not help make it make sense. Like I tell my players. You either do or you don't. You either will or you won't. So, you either like what I say or you don't. It doesn't effect what and how I do what I do.
 
Oct 25, 2009
3,345
48
The definition of rotation makes you envision around, circular. If i create a circular path with my hips then they will pul my hands in a circular path.. How can I have circular hips, circular hand path and a linear bat?

Look at these clips and tell me if Bautista's rear hip is going out and around, as in circular, as in rotational?

bautistaoverheadzoom_zpsf42ad6e8.gif


bautistaresist_zps70ed304d.gif


Or is it coiling back and trying to stay coiled so it can follow a linear path? If he were to coil it and then uncoil it. The rear hip would reverse direction of the coil and it would go out and around.

Does it not look like everything is pivoting around the rear hip as the rear hip moves forward?

That is why I do not like rotate the hips. It gives the impression that you are just turning the hips closed to just turn them open. That is not very powerful or sudden and it is filled with slop/slack.

That is why I like coil and coil some more. The coil is maintained. In fact it just continues to coil so that the rear hip can come around from inside.

Try this. Get a piece of paper and a pencil/pen. Lets use a right hand hitter in this demo. Place the tip of the pen down like you are getting ready to write on the paper. Where the pen is that represents the rear hip. Now start to draw a circle in the direction the rear hip coils (clockwise). Keep coming around the circle. Once you complete a quarter circle, which way is the rear hip moving? It should be headed towards the infield. At any point once you reach the quarter turn position of the pen you can direct that line through the ball. Now, the rear hip is directing energy from the inside. IMO, the rear hip continues to coil so it can take a direct path through the ball.

If you do the same exercise as above but when you get to the quarter turn point and then reverse that on the same path and take it around counter clockwise. That would be hip rotation. That puts the hip out and around the ball.

Best I can do to explain myself.

Not the era of astro turf. I was a teenager in the 80's. I watch slo mo video but I am not a fan of putting together a whole hitting plan based on slo mo video and forgetting what created those mechanics. Forgetting what the player who you are watching did in practice to get there.

Nope, I will not post a student here. Just don't need to. If what I say doesn't make sense. Then my students will not help make it make sense. Like I tell my players. You either do or you don't. You either will or you won't. So, you either like what I say or you don't. It doesn't effect what and how I do what I do.

What he does with his hip before he swings is what I call rotation. I caution players to not confuse spinning the hips when I tell them to rotate.

Again, it's just semantics it seems. I would have no issue with your interpretation at all, because the hip rotation is (or should be) the result of the linear action you describe.
 

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