13yo Maddie

tjintx said:

Oh now you want to talk about it? Now that you've parroted Rich you sock puppet. You keep believing all that 1 sided garbage you've swallowed hook line and sucker.
Does the front "SCAP" have a role in supporting the arms? Simple question. If your answer is no then you should close your account or just give the login to Rich.

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Lots of good work being posted on twitter doing all of that 1 sided garbage. PDS, Jsoriano, MPI, Run n Gun, Zona, Medina, etc

tjintx said:

At least I am the true owner of my own panties.
Total body awareness is a focus. if you think the rear scap makes the front scap do something then please go drool in the corner.
Get the body awareness correct and you will be amazed at.... Oh wait... you've been down that road....and you will be surprised and what people don't give a rats butt about... or is that a ratsbuttermaker..... you need a cold shower or something to wake you up... not a problem if you are adding knowledge. Big problem if you go blind.

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Well, the floor is yours. Prove otherwise. You don't like the answers out there so you think you need to go original. It's hitting. The one sided garbage works better than anything else out there or else you and TDS would be posting swings just to shut Rich up. But, instead you stoop to calling me names.

FP26 said:

The front scap plays an important role in the swing. Especially at 'go' time, IMO.

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I believe you earlier referred to the front shoulder action at 'go' as a 'retraction'.



That isn't what I feel taking place at 'go' relative to the front shoulder.

I do agree with Tjintx's comment of a 'supporting function'. To some extent, it the opposite of creating tension. More of getting a hitter to 'relax' ... not spaghetti noodle, but getting the arms structurally comfortable.

FiveFrameSwing said:

I believe you earlier referred to the front shoulder action at 'go' as a 'retraction'.

That isn't what I feel taking place at 'go' relative to the front shoulder.

I do agree with Tjintx's comment of a 'supporting function'. To some extent, it the opposite of creating tension. More of getting a hitter to 'relax' ... not spaghetti noodle, but getting the arms structurally comfortable.

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I have no issue with 'supporting function', or 'structurally comfortable'. In fact, I kind of like both of those terms. But what I feel is some movement in my front scap (perhaps shoulder depending how you want to break things down anatomically...). Whether or not this happens at 'go' is I suppose up to your view of what 'go' actually is and when it occurs. But the movement is a slight retraction in the scap area. Very slight... I have posted a link below that goes into greater detail concerning this. To be honest, I seem to remember you using some phrasing concerning the front arm. Something like 'inspire to be a swinger'. Please correct me if am not quoting that correctly. When I first saw you type that, it was this move (in conjunction with other things) that I immediately thought of. Perhaps you were referring to something else... But yes, it is most definitely a 'supporting function' and we do not want to 'create tension' with it. Sorry if it seemed I was implying otherwise.

Take a look at this link when you have an opportunity. I would be interested in reading your thoughts about it. TJ as well, if you don't mind.

Micromove #1 - East Bay Hitting Instruction

FP26 said:

I have no issue with 'supporting function', or 'structurally comfortable'. In fact, I kind of like both of those terms. But what I feel is some movement in my front scap (perhaps shoulder depending how you want to break things down anatomically...). Whether or not this happens at 'go' is I suppose up to your view of what 'go' actually is and when it occurs. But the movement is a slight retraction in the scap area. Very slight... I have posted a link below that goes into greater detail concerning this. To be honest, I seem to remember you using some phrasing concerning the front arm. Something like 'inspire to be a swinger'. Please correct me if am not quoting that correctly. When I first saw you type that, it was this move (in conjunction with other things) that I immediately thought of. Perhaps you were referring to something else... But yes, it is most definitely a 'supporting function' and we do not want to 'create tension' with it. Sorry if it seemed I was implying otherwise.

Take a look at this link when you have an opportunity. I would be interested in reading your thoughts about it. TJ as well, if you don't mind.

Micromove #1 - East Bay Hitting Instruction

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He is right about one thing. He writes ... "Now let’s focus on two very, very important frames of the swing as he is transitioning into heel plant. Focus on the front shoulder." He is right that this is a good place to focus on. He is incorrect that it is shoulder retraction that is taking place.

During the lateral tilting process, when the rear shoulder is in effect being pulled down, the lead arm will 'connect' to the upper torso. This is when one can feel a sense of 'fusion' occurring in the lead shoulder ... and this is when the lead arm connects to the upper torso. Basically the muscle in the lead shoulder will in a sense 'tighten' or 'fuse'.

This is important IMO. It is why I speak of the 'main engine', and specifically the 'lateral tilt' component of the 'main engine', inspiring the lead arm to be a swinger.

Donny often spoke of the lead-arm as the connected arm to the core's rotation. He was correct. You want this fusion in the front shoulder, just as you want the 'lateral tilt' to inspire the lead arm to be a swinger.

FiveFrameSwing said:

He is right about one thing. He writes ... "Now let’s focus on two very, very important frames of the swing as he is transitioning into heel plant. Focus on the front shoulder." He is right that this is a good place to focus on. He is incorrect that it is shoulder retraction that is taking place.

During the lateral tilting process, when the rear shoulder is in effect being pulled down, the lead arm will 'connect' to the upper torso. This is when one can feel a sense of 'fusion' occurring in the lead shoulder ... and this is when the lead arm connects to the upper torso. Basically the muscle in the lead shoulder will in a sense 'tighten' or 'fuse'.

This is important IMO. It is why I speak of the 'main engine', and specifically the 'lateral tilt' component of the 'main engine', inspiring the lead arm to be a swinger.

Donny often spoke of the lead-arm as the connected arm to the core's rotation. He was correct. You want this fusion in the front shoulder, just as you want the 'lateral tilt' to inspire the lead arm to be a swinger.

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Thank you for the conversation FFS. I understand what you are saying in regards to the "lead arm will connect to the upper torso". In fact, I agree with this. In that article I sighted, there is discussion about how the lead shoulder 'works under the chin'. Are you stating that this movement is primarily caused by 'rotation' and not by the front scap retracting? From my viewpoint, I believe there is some retraction prior to the 'connection' or 'fusion' you are talking about. This retraction is partially why the front arm gives the appearance of lengthening during that portion of the swing (the frames he is focusing on in that article). We are discussing a very short time frame here, so there is this slight retraction and then almost instantaneously moves into the 'connection' or 'fusion' you are speaking about. In fact, I believe this also varies somewhat based on pitch location.

FP26, I appreciate the discussion as well. The movement of the front shoulder forward AND up is not caused by a retraction of the lead scap. It is a result of the 'engine' ... i.e., the core action ... inclusive of the 'lateral tilt'.

FiveFrameSwing said:

He is right about one thing. He writes ... "Now let’s focus on two very, very important frames of the swing as he is transitioning into heel plant. Focus on the front shoulder." He is right that this is a good place to focus on. He is incorrect that it is shoulder retraction that is taking place.

During the lateral tilting process, when the rear shoulder is in effect being pulled down, the lead arm will 'connect' to the upper torso. This is when one can feel a sense of 'fusion' occurring in the lead shoulder ... and this is when the lead arm connects to the upper torso. Basically the muscle in the lead shoulder will in a sense 'tighten' or 'fuse'.

This is important IMO. It is why I speak of the 'main engine', and specifically the 'lateral tilt' component of the 'main engine', inspiring the lead arm to be a swinger.

Donny often spoke of the lead-arm as the connected arm to the core's rotation. He was correct. You want this fusion in the front shoulder, just as you want the 'lateral tilt' to inspire the lead arm to be a swinger.

Click to expand...

Let's come back to this post for a minute. You are stating that the front shoulder will "tighten" or "fuse". What muscles and actions are creating this fusion (specifically in the front shoulder / scap area)? And if this fusion does not happen correctly, what will the result be?

FP26, retraction of the front-scap would have the hitter 'opening up'. At this point in the swing you do not want that.



I'll see if I can describe this 'fusion' a bit better. I wrote a post on it several years ago (maybe a decade or so) that LClifton appreciated enough to send me a complimentary note on. He told me at the time not to lose that post. Well ... I can't find it .

In any event, the front shoulder moving "up" and "forward" is huge. Don Slaught got this wrong with what he termed the 'first move' and thought was a lead arm shove forward ... which is incorrect. What I believe he missed was that it was the 'core' that led to this action.

In my opinion it is more important to focus on this front shoulder reaction than it is to try to focus on HI's belief of falling over the rear hip. The author of the article you referenced got this right. This shoulder movement, which you obtain indirectly though the core actions, is what inspires/starts/initiates the swing. Getting this resulting action is what I believe should be focused on during the development of the main engine ... whereas IMO HI seems to miss this and places the focus on the laterally tilting over the rear hip. What the author got incorrect was the description of 'shoulder retraction'.

FiveFrameSwing said:

FP26, retraction of the front-scap would have the hitter 'opening up'. At this point in the swing you do not want that.

I'll see if I can describe this 'fusion' a bit better. I wrote a post on it several years ago (maybe a decade or so) that LClifton appreciated enough to send me a complimentary note on. He told me at the time not to lose that post. Well ... I can't find it .

In any event, the front shoulder moving "up" and "forward" is huge. Don Slaught got this wrong with what he termed the 'first move' and thought was a lead arm shove forward ... which is incorrect. What I believe he missed was that it was the 'core' that led to this action.

In my opinion it is more important to focus on this front shoulder reaction than it is to try to focus on HI's belief of falling over the rear hip. The author of the article you referenced got this right. This shoulder movement, which you obtain indirectly though the core actions, is what inspires/starts/initiates the swing. Getting this resulting action is what I believe should be focused on during the development of the main engine ... whereas IMO HI seems to miss this and places the focus on the laterally tilting over the rear hip. What the author got incorrect was the description of 'shoulder retraction'.

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This is where we may have a bit of a difference in opinion, sort of... I agree that if the retraction is over done, it will lead to opening up. That is not what I am suggesting at all. We are definitely on the same page with that. Over use of this action could also lead to 'chicken winging' or the 'hard left turn' as some people call it. The way I see it, this very subtle retraction (the movement is quite small) actually releases some slack or 'tightens' the system preparing for launch. Not having this 'tightness' can lead to other problems as well. I have a feeling we are talking about a similar process but coming at it from different directions. I would be very interested in reading that post you are referring to. Hopefully you are able to find it.