Gamemanship or Cheating?

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Dec 5, 2012
4,143
63
Mid West
What are your collective thoughts on a few issues... Some people feel as if this is "Busch League"
Things like...
1. Picking opposing pitch calling and relaying that info in an inconspicuous way...
2. Having a base runner on 2nd and she relays where the catcher is setting up to the batter (in or out)
3. A coach deciphers opponents batting or base running signs and again relays info to his team in an inconspicuous way

I have done these little things for years, some people think less of me for doing so. Am I a jerk, or have less values for the game than others?
I try to give my teams the best opportunity to win.... Isn't that what coaching is?

Here's what happened last night, As some of you know, I shut down my travel org to pursue other things. Which led me to becoming an AC/pitching coach for another org. I notice the HC instructing our catcher to set up way early, tap her leg to indicate inside or out etc.... As a former opposing coach, I'd be licking my chops at this. I'd have a code for my hitters. If it was outside I'd yell "here we go" and inside I'd yell "you got it".... If I saw a tucked finger on the pitchers grip, I'd call the player by her #, as this means here comes a change up.... (If I saw a call for an outside change up I'd say "Here we go 55, as I was clapping") Shes now prepared for the speed and location assuming the pitcher was on point.
We had massive success doing this stuff in the past. When I brought up these things, he was literally irritated by this, had a nasty look on his face, kept shaking his head no, and said NO, We don't do those thing, implying that they were lacking integrity....
Thoughts?
 
Oct 27, 2017
174
43
I see nothing wrong with trying to "steal" signs, it's all part of the chess match. Figuring out the other teams tendencies and play calling is part of the game and, IMO, good coaching.
 
Jun 8, 2016
16,118
113
In college baseball, our coach assigned 2 or 3 guys who weren't playing to try and steal the other team's signs. Not sure if it is Bush league or not but it is certainly done all the time....
 
Feb 15, 2016
273
18
It depends on what level. I have seen coaches in 12U doing it and I think that is a little bit crazy. I personally don't get actively involved with it. Let the girls play the game. I am all for looking for a pitcher's "tells" and letting all the hitters know and having them watch for it from the dugout. I am also all for having runners signal batters on pitch locations. I think it is a litle bit bush-league for adults to be doing this when kids are playing. Again, let them play the game and let the best team win. At 16U and up if you want to do this I don't have any problem with another coach doing it against us. I sort of put coaches yelling out codes for opposing pitch location in the same vein as calling multiple timeouts or having the girl with the shoes that won't stay tied at the plate in the bottom of a late inning in a timed game when you are ahead. Part of the game and trying everything you can do within the rules to win, but somewhat bush-league.
 
Jan 30, 2018
252
0
SE Michigan
As I read your post I kept hoping you would say "asking for a friend" because I like reading your posts. No offense, but I feel it is busch, but I also feel it is less busch in the older (14u and higher) and it depends on the level you are playing. At 10 and 12u the girls are still learning a lot of the basics and haven't refined their skills at the little things that make a good player. There is a team we have played that we know had a parent/coach write down our signs from our bands to figure out what we were doing. A week later we were talking to a coach of a really good team that told us they had the same experience and told us of others. If I was the opposing coach and figured out you were doing it, I would let you know about it too, I would probably embarrass us both. LOL.
 
Jun 8, 2016
16,118
113
I agree that any of this stuff is ridiculous at the 10U/12U level. At 10U half of the kids still need the umps to tie their shoelaces if they come undone during the middle of an inning ;)
 
Jul 16, 2013
4,659
113
Pennsylvania
It depends on what level. I have seen coaches in 12U doing it and I think that is a little bit crazy. I personally don't get actively involved with it. Let the girls play the game. I am all for looking for a pitcher's "tells" and letting all the hitters know and having them watch for it from the dugout. I am also all for having runners signal batters on pitch locations. I think it is a litle bit bush-league for adults to be doing this when kids are playing. Again, let them play the game and let the best team win. At 16U and up if you want to do this I don't have any problem with another coach doing it against us. I sort of put coaches yelling out codes for opposing pitch location in the same vein as calling multiple timeouts or having the girl with the shoes that won't stay tied at the plate in the bottom of a late inning in a timed game when you are ahead. Part of the game and trying everything you can do within the rules to win, but somewhat bush-league.

I mostly agree with this way of thinking. Let the girls play the game. Some of my players have a knack for stealing signs and will point out pitch location when on 2nd. I am fine with that. My pitchers will even watch the opposing pitchers to see if they can pick any 'tells'. But it is not an activity I get involved in myself other than to maybe point something out and then let them figure it out. That said, I am not offended when other coaches do these things. In fact, at times, I will use it to our advantage. If I know a coach is stealing signs, I will change them or add a decoy to create confusion. Nothing better than seeing a coach try to warn his players only to have it backfire on them.

In regards to coaching in general, my philosophy is a bit different. It isn't my job as a coach to win games. That's the player's jobs. It's my job to put them in a position to win the games themselves, to help foster their love of the sport, and to do what I can to help them reach their potential. The rest is up to them.
 
Nov 16, 2015
184
18
i dont see a place for it in 10u or 12u. 14u and older go and get it.

Why is this different than scouting in basketball or football? I would watch film as basketball coach and look at sets or individual player tendencies and adjust accordingly.
 
Jun 29, 2013
589
18
I'm with the majority. At 10U and 12U, it's hard enough getting the girls to calm down enough to get signals to the pitcher and catcher, and the hitter for that matter. Teams have to have simple signals if their not using the wristbands, so calling them out (even having a runner at 2B doing this) is poor sportsmanship in my book. It is a kids game, let the kids win or lose it. At 14U and above the girls still playing have more experience and see the game differently. I'd rather see the kids on the field calling things out than a coach, though, so please teach the kids what you're seeing and let them do this on their own rather than relying on the adults on the fields. Seems more appropriate this way, as then you are teaching a skill.
 
May 16, 2016
946
93
Is your goal to win as many games as possible, or develop your players to their fullest potential while playing competitive softball? I would guess, most travel ball organizations would claim, "player development" as their goal. Then, you have to ask yourself, is feeding your batters stolen signs helping or hurting their long term development? There is no question, knowing a change up is coming, will help the batter hit that PITCH, but does it help your batter hit change ups in the future, when they aren't fed that information...
 

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