Tournament Seeding question

GStrot · Jul 10, 2017

This was not the first time I have seen this cause confusion. So, would appreciating other people's opinion and thoughts...

4 teams have identical 1-2 records.

The rules state:
"Tie Breaker to Determine Seeds: 1.) Head to head 2.) Fewest Runs Allowed 3.) Total Run Differential 4.) Coin flip"

Team A
13 Runs Against
14 Runs Scored (+1 Differential)
Lost to Team C

Team B
13 Runs Against
6 Runs Scored (-7 Differential)
Did not play the other 3 teams

Team C
16 Runs Against
11 Runs Scored (-5 Differential)
Beat Team A

Team D
20 Runs Against
6 Runs Scored
Did not play the other 3 teams

How would you seed them?

CoogansBluff · Jul 10, 2017

Tiebreaker rules are notoriously written poorly. I've seen this a lot in high school football where you've got a 3-way tie for the final playoff berth, and nobody at the end off the regular season can agree on what the tiebreaker rules mean, or they don't account for all the what-if's. I can only answer based on what seems the most fair given the stated (but inadequate) rules.

FP26 · Jul 10, 2017

In many cases, the "head to head" rule only applies if the tie is between two teams. Once a third team is involved in the tie, head to head is out the window. Therefore I would rank them "A" (top seed), "B", "C", and "D" (low seed).

Elk Grove Hurricane · Jul 10, 2017

I agree with FP26. The H to H rule would seem to only apply if each team played each other, thus you go to runs allowed, then run differential. But I have been wrong on this more than I have been right in the past.

marriard · Jul 10, 2017

I don't see any confusion here.

- head to head is out since all teams didn't play each other
- fewest runs given up means D is seeded 4th, C is seeded 3rd
- Run differential means B is seeded 2nd A is seeded 1st.

So ABCD

kjs23 · Jul 10, 2017

Clearly ABCD in this case but the fun would really start if it had been A and B who played each other in bracket with B winning. B would argue that after narrowing the field to the top two seeds then the head to head game should matter. A would argue that you can't go back up the priority list after one tiebreaker method is used/dismissed. Both have a legitimate argument. Tiebreaker rules need to be specific and unambiguous! I've see this situation happen a few times in hockey. One disagreement finally ended with the TD going to a coin flip. Must have been pretty tough to tell a group of kids who thought they had qualified that their tournament and season was now over because coach picked heads instead of tails. TD was distraught over the whole mess and resigned from the committee after the tournament.

GStrot · Jul 10, 2017

Seems like the discussion is all headed in the same direction. Which is what I thought it was going to be - ABCD.

The tournament originally posted CABD but changed their mind to BCAD. I was hoping someone who picked those would provide their logic. Because the tournament's logic didn't make sense.

We always include "head to head unless it doesn't break the tie" as our first tiebreaker. Seems like a good solution but the AvB scenario kjs23 brings up does make for an interesting discussion.

djcarter1966 · Jul 11, 2017

I think it was pretty easy to see their logic and it's what I did but I can see all sides.

First I think we can all agree D is last so then you are just hashing out the rest. Basically since C beat A and their records are the same C will ALWAYS be placed above A. Now since B didn't play any of the teams, runs against and differential put B above the others so you have B then C then A then D. It's never an exact science but I think using this rational is more justifiable than a coin flip.

kjs23 · Jul 11, 2017

Yes, I guess it could be fairly argued for BCAD per djc's description but I've never personally seen head-to-head used unless all tied teams had played each other. The point of head-to-head is to remove strength of opponent imbalance from the equation so without that direct comparison it really holds less value than run differentials calculations... imho.

GStrot · Jul 12, 2017

djcarter1966 said:
I think it was pretty easy to see their logic and it's what I did but I can see all sides.

First I think we can all agree D is last so then you are just hashing out the rest.

Unless D beat A. In which case it would be BCDA by this logic.

Thanks for replying. I appreciate your input.

I guess I am trying to understand if we look at this as six ties that need to be broken (AvB, AVC, AvD, BvC, BvD, CvD) or one tie. And is head to head then runs against putting B ahead then head to head again putting C ahead of A the correct application of the tiebreaker rules as stated.

Has anyone found a better solution for breaking ties?

Tournament Seeding question

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how do you seed these teams?

BCAD

CABD

ABCD

CBDA

Other (please post in thread)

GStrot

CoogansBluff

FP26

Elk Grove Hurricane

marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am

kjs23

GStrot

djcarter1966

kjs23

GStrot

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