The Ethics of Softball. Your Input.

Rocketech1 said:

You do understand that they are already allowing leaping and replanting, they just have not made it official....

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This is true and it would be a huge impact were it ever to be made 'official'. The current considerations by the NCAA rules committee show the direction this is headed. Which is not anywhere close to the fantasy of the official sanctioning of leaping, crow hopping, increasing the distance, etc. Most understand that when you have a problem with folks doing 65mph in a 55mph zone, the solution is certainly not to raise the speed limit to 80mph.

riseball said:

Most understand that when you have a problem with folks doing 65mph in a 55mph zone, the solution is certainly not to raise the speed limit to 80mph.

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Bad analogy and comparing apples to oranges. Speeding kills lives and violating the vehicular code could end you up in jail (criminally negligent, reckless driving)

In contrast, the rules of softball are to make the game fair for all participants. If the rules are not working as intended, they can and should be changed to the betterment of the game. In fact, all sports review and update their game's rules on an annual basis in an attempt to make the game better each year. Maybe at one point in the history of fastpitch "leap and drag" techniques had a purpose; however these rules have been outgrown by the modern game.

As I have said the only folks clamoring to allow leaping, crow hopping, etc. are those invested in a skippie. Common sense falls by the wayside only to be replaced by rationalization and endless excuses. They are the only ones suggesting that "leveling the playing field" and "betterment of the game" involves measures to benefit their skippie at the expense of those who put in the work to do it correctly. It appears that the NCAA has indeed reviewed the rules and will be taking measures in 2018. When it is all said and done skippies will still be illegal and IP's will be called. Good news is they have some time to learn to pitch properly.

Rocketech1 said:

Bad analogy and comparing apples to oranges. Speeding kills lives and violating the vehicular code could end you up in jail (criminally negligent, reckless driving)

In contrast, the rules of softball are to make the game fair for all participants. If the rules are not working as intended, they can and should be changed to the betterment of the game. In fact, all sports review and update their game's rules on an annual basis in an attempt to make the game better each year. Maybe at one point in the history of fastpitch "leap and drag" techniques had a purpose; however these rules have been outgrown by the modern game.

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Totally disagree with this. The rules are fine. The problem comes when the officials at the NCAA D1 level refuse to call the IP's due to the politics of the game. Call too many IP's and you won't be working the games. NCAA needs to take control and give the power back to the officials to call the IP's regardless. Pitch by the rules. A vast majority of the pitchers do. Why change the rules for the few who don't simply because they don't get called for it.

mj1569 said:

Totally disagree with this. The rules are fine. The problem comes when the officials at the NCAA D1 level refuse to call the IP's due to the politics of the game. Call too many IP's and you won't be working the games. NCAA needs to take control and give the power back to the officials to call the IP's regardless. Pitch by the rules. A vast majority of the pitchers do. Why change the rules for the few who don't simply because they don't get called for it.

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No one has been able to answer my question why leap and drag pitching mechanics create so much non-compliance, blatant disregard for the rules, and non-enforcement at every level of the game. Not once in 9 years have I been involved in the game, have I seen an umpire enforce IP's throughout the whole game. Not once!

There is more to the story than just a few skippies...

riseball said:

As I have said the only folks clamoring to allow leaping, crow hopping, etc. are those invested in a skippie. Common sense falls by the wayside only to be replaced by rationalization and endless excuses. They are the only ones suggesting that "leveling the playing field" and "betterment of the game" involves measures to benefit their skippie at the expense of those who put in the work to do it correctly. It appears that the NCAA has indeed reviewed the rules and will be taking measures in 2018. When it is all said and done skippies will still be illegal and IP's will be called. Good news is they have some time to learn to pitch properly.

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I think we can have an honest discussion without trying to attack others. My DD is fine (albeit we have to put a string down sometimes when she gets a little skippe to reinforce the full drag every time). The bigger issue is what should the rules be if there has been decades of problems. Heck, most members here didn't even realize that Cat Osterman and Kaitlin Lee were pitching illegally every time until I pointed it out!

You do realize there was a time when there was no "leap and drag". The game has always evolved based on the modern play of the game. I think we have reached that time again with the pitching regulations.

Rocketech1 said:

No one has been able to answer my question why leap and drag pitching mechanics create so much non-compliance, blatant disregard for the rules, and non-enforcement at every level of the game. Not once in 9 years have I been involved in the game, have I seen an umpire enforce IP's throughout the whole game. Not once!

There is more to the story than just a few skippies...

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It is unfortunate that you live in an abyss of poor pitching mechanics and incompetent umpires. From where I sit most if not all pitchers are legal or could be if the rules were enforced and they were held accountable. The ones that truly cannot pitch legally need to leave the game and the game will be better for it.

Leap and drag mechanics do not create non-compliance. Rather it is a sense of entitlement, and non-accountability fed by enabling helicopter parents providing excuses and participation trophies. Little Suzy cannot be allowed to fail, and god forbid someone actually hold her accountable to follow the rules. IP's are the symptom, not the real issue. First we need to change the pitching rules because little Suzy does not want to keep her foot down. Then we need to change the strike zone because little Suzy does not want to strike out. No sport changes the rules of the game just because little Suzy and her parents want things to be different. There is no problem with the rules. They just need to be vigorously enforced and little Suzy needs to be held accountable and learn how to pitch.

riseball said:

It is unfortunate that you live in an abyss of poor pitching mechanics and incompetent umpires. From where I sit most if not all pitchers are legal or could be if the rules were enforced and they were held accountable. The ones that truly cannot pitch legally need to leave the game

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The irony is that illegal pitching is right under your nose. You ever DVR your DDs teammate? I have and unfortunately she leaps a lot. I know you don't think illegal pitching is a problem but it's everywhere, especially in the major D1 conferences. They didn't just pick up illegal mechanics in college.

Rocketech1 said:

The irony is that illegal pitching is right under your nose. You ever DVR your DDs teammate? I have and unfortunately she leaps a lot. I know you don't think illegal pitching is a problem but it's everywhere, especially in the major D1 conferences. They didn't just pick up illegal mechanics in college.

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In your alternative softball universe if Nickie Blue or Katlin Lee were to be called for an IP, due to their "ingrained mechanics" they would be physically unable to point their foot down and pitch legally. They would then have to leave the game, their softball career ended, scholarship pulled, and on a fast track to cashier training at Walmart. All due to the IP pitching epidemic and the arcane pitching rules. Oh the humanity, if we only had dumbed down the game sooner to "level the playing field" and "provide more opportunities" for kids that can't pitch.

Meanwhile back on planet earth we know that is not the case. They are athletes and more than capable of such a minor adjustment. If I can get a 12yo legal in a couple of weeks, an SEC pitcher should be able to handle it in short order. It is no different than speeding. In areas of strict enforcement people do not speed. They do not need to ticket every speeder only a few to send a message. Yes, there may be some pitchers who are illegal. But your Chicken Little, sky is falling claims of an epidemic which cannot be fixed is simply ludicrous. You seem to be under the impression that enforcement must be 100% accurate 100% of the time to be effective. That is simply not true. Just like the strike zone, calls will differ and they may not get it right every time. But using your alternative world logic we should do away with the strike zone because it is not enforced perfectly and consistent from coast to coast.

The bottom line is that 99% of the pitchers out there are more than capable of pitching legally. They just need to be held accountable and given an incentive to keep their big toe pointed down. The rules are just fine, just make the call and it will sort itself out in a week or two.

riseball said:

In your alternative softball universe if Nickie Blue or Katlin Lee were to be called for an IP, due to their "ingrained mechanics" they would be physically unable to point their foot down and pitch legally. They would then have to leave the game, their softball career ended, scholarship pulled, and on a fast track to cashier training at Walmart. All due to the IP pitching epidemic and the arcane pitching rules. Oh the humanity, if we only had dumbed down the game sooner to "level the playing field" and "provide more opportunities" for kids that can't pitch.

Meanwhile back on planet earth we know that is not the case. They are athletes and more than capable of such a minor adjustment. If I can get a 12yo legal in a couple of weeks, an SEC pitcher should be able to handle it in short order. It is no different than speeding. In areas of strict enforcement people do not speed. They do not need to ticket every speeder only a few to send a message. Yes, there may be some pitchers who are illegal. But your Chicken Little, sky is falling claims of an epidemic which cannot be fixed is simply ludicrous. You seem to be under the impression that enforcement must be 100% accurate 100% of the time to be effective. That is simply not true. Just like the strike zone, calls will differ and they may not get it right every time. But using your alternative world logic we should do away with the strike zone because it is not enforced perfectly and consistent from coast to coast.

The bottom line is that 99% of the pitchers out there are more than capable of pitching legally. They just need to be held accountable and given an incentive to keep their big toe pointed down. The rules are just fine, just make the call and it will sort itself out in a week or two.

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There are a lot of D1 pitching coaches that wished it worked as easily as you think it does. Making mechanical adjustments during a season, while trying to pitch weekly is impossible. That means you have to take the athlete out of the normal pitching rotation. Then even if you do that, you have to fight 10 or more years of the poor mechanics. The athlete has to go back to basics and may lose velocity and/or spin. Even if they make the adjustment and build back up an approximation of their previous spin/speed, they will often revwrt durimg game situations. It is not as easy as just pointing your foot down.

I have a story of a highly recruited pitcher, big kid about 6', very athletic. Blew it by kids all the time. Curve/screw at 67-69 with good movement with a decent change, and a rise at 64-66. She went to her school of choice and their new PC was like whoa, she's illegal, and sure enough, she gets called several times in her first several games (including once with a runner on third to walk in the winning run, but that's another story). The HC says, we need to fix her so they embark on her learning how to drag. Her progress is impeded by still needing to pitch occasionally and reverting to leaping (and getting called for IPs). She picks up the drag but her mechanics have completely changed. She is now throwing 57-59 and she's throwing everything flat when dragging. She, and her PC, start to work on building back her speed/spin and she makes some progress. They run out of time for the season. She comes back and is throwing very flat yet and decides along with the coaches that she wants to concentrate on hitting as she realizes she's still struggling with the drag mechanics (and there is a new stud pitcher on the team). This young woman is no longer pitching.

I don't think it's fair that the inconsistency of enforcing the rules played a major part in the young woman above not pitching while KB still is. Not only that, KB is being rewarded for her rule breaking while those who are legal like the stud pitcher referenced above, are performing at a high level but hamstrung by following the rules.

Rocketech1 said:

The irony is that illegal pitching is right under your nose. You ever DVR your DDs teammate? I have and unfortunately she leaps a lot. I know you don't think illegal pitching is a problem but it's everywhere, especially in the major D1 conferences. They didn't just pick up illegal mechanics in college.

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