Blocking - toes in or toes out?

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Oct 1, 2014
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USA
Looking for some input here as to whether a catcher should drop to block with their toes pointed inward (limiting the potential for a ball to get all the way through underneath and to the backstop) or with their toes pointed outward (which may improve their ability to jump up and throw the ball or go chase the ball quicker). Seems like there may be a difference in the technique used with runners on when dropping to the knees to block a pitch in the dirt also?

We've been working on the NECC/Weaver technique of pointing the toes in but recently was told that was wrong and would slow down the time it takes to get back on her feet which I understand. Others say Jen Schroder teaches a more toe out orientation. DD is going to Jen's Catcher retreat in late July so I guess we'll get her philosophy then but wondered what the opinions (and rationale) would be on here. Chaz, what are your thoughts and what does Advanced Catching Concepts teach regarding this? Besides the speed difference to upright vs hopefully controlling more balls, what other pros & cons are there for each approach? In or Out?
 
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Greenmonsters

Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
Feb 21, 2009
6,168
38
New England
Two different techniques and schools of thought - IMO one school will explain and provide proof why "their way" is better, the other school will explain, but can't provide proof why. Trust, but verify is always a good policy.








FWIW, toes in IMO.
 
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Josh Greer

DFP Vendor
Jul 31, 2013
934
93
Central Missouri
My son worked with a catching coach for years and made him work on hours of blocking with toes out. He was aware of Weaver's training but feels that with toes under, especially when blocking side to side, toes under places you in an unbalanced situation. I passed on the same instruction to my daughter who blocks with toes out. But proper and frequent stretching is very much a requirement to get the body this low.
 
Oct 3, 2011
3,478
113
Right Here For Now
IMO, there are few advantages to a toe out approach as to toes in, Some coaches will claim that it's more stable but that's patently false. A player can be stable in either finished blocking stance. As to popping from the knees after a block, if taught proper technique, a catcher can be just as fast, if not a tad faster from the toes in. Disadvantages to a toes out-1) It requires an awful lot of stretching and flexibility to be effective. 2) Because of this, if a catcher is late getting down, they will be more prone to getting 5 holed on a drop; especially at the younger ages since there is no last line of defense. 3) If the catcher doesn't get quite wide enough, there's the possibility that the ball will bounce off of the foot and send it God knows where. 4) After being a catcher when I was waaaay younger and learning the toes out approach, I've found that it's actually much harder on the body.

Advantages to a toes in approach 1) The toes offer a last line of defense even if the catcher gets down a tad late. 2) It requires far less flexibility and thus, IME, easier to teach and learn proper technique. 3) If the catcher doesn't get wide enough, the ball continues to travel straight back to the backstop making it far more predictable where to locate by the catcher. 4) Overall, much easier on the body and knees. JMHO
 
Feb 17, 2014
7,152
113
Orlando, FL
This is where I see a significant difference between softball and baseball catching. With toes in, yes you have a last line of defense if you get down late. In baseball that can keep a runner from advancing. In softball once you get to the point where your butt and the ball have become one, unless the runner falls down they are going to advance. Taking a page from the pitching world, this sounds more like style than an absolute. I would go with what is most natural for the player.
 
Oct 1, 2014
2,219
113
USA
Thanks for the input, like anything else there's always different opinions. I could definitely see where the toes out could take a toll on the body over the years knowing that stretching/flexibility isn't always what it should be everytime they drop. If they are practicing popping up from a toes in position and have gotten used to being stable with that I can't imagine it being that much slower to pop. One more thing to collect times and data on!
 
Oct 3, 2011
3,478
113
Right Here For Now
Thanks for the input, like anything else there's always different opinions. I could definitely see where the toes out could take a toll on the body over the years knowing that stretching/flexibility isn't always what it should be everytime they drop. If they are practicing popping up from a toes in position and have gotten used to being stable with that I can't imagine it being that much slower to pop. One more thing to collect times and data on!

I'll be interested in your findings. I've always felt popping from the toes in was a tad faster between the two because you have more body surface area to pop from (entire width and length of the foot and shin versus just the side) and you're using the bigger quad muscles on the front of the thigh. Also, from the toes in, you can swing the feet into position faster and easier for the proper throwing set up/footwork IMO as you're popping from the knees. Again, I have no definitive proof but I, myself have always felt faster from start to finish from the toes in and popping. I also feel that all of my catchers will outperform others in the toes out position in this instance. Again, JMHO without definitive proof.
 
Nov 12, 2009
365
18
Kansas City
Sorry not to respond sooner Tatonka. My work load with the railroad has increased and catching has kept me busy too.
I think more of feet in or feet out when I think about blocking effectiveness. IMO catchers should land on toes with toe-to-heel vertical. We don't encourage rolling the ankles to have toes out or toes in because it's hard on the ankles and it leaves a catcher more prone to injury when they block low throws from outfielders for plays at the plate and wind up in a collision with an incoming runner. (Such as what happened to Buster Posey) The same set of circumstances occurred to one of my HS girls and the manner in with we have her set her feet not only saved her from injury, but got her the out. We will always teach the safest methods and techniques. We can't just consider blocking pitches as a good catcher will block every throw in the dirt to them... We need to consider how they react to throws in the dirt for tag plays at home.

As for feet in or feet out (wide feet verses narrow feet) the advantages of wide feet placement is that it is literally 4-point contact with the ground and is very stable for a catcher. This is great for blocking pitches but incredibly dangerous for blocking low throws in from the field for tag plays. The catcher is most likely to suffer some type of injury if they are rolled over. A wide foot landing for pitch blocking is harder to get up from to throw a runner out, and for catcher's who throw from their knees, its more difficult to load their bodies for a throw down with their feet extended outside of the knees. Kids who block with wide feet tend to allow their rear to drop between their feet and don't present a "tall wall"... more bouncing balls tag them in the mask or go over their heads as well.

We encourage our catchers to form a tripod with their knees wide and feet together to the extent that their bodies are able. It's just not possible for all catchers. While a tripod may be less stable for pitch blocking, we want to be less stable and able to roll without injury when we wind up on our knees chasing a throw with a runner baring down on us. I made this video back in 2013 to illustrate these points.

 
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Jul 10, 2011
151
18
Rockport, MA
Hey everyone, been a while since I posted and figured this would be a good chance to jump back into it.

The key to this question is to first understand what the goal is in regards to either foot placement. Are we concerned with speed out of the block position after executing the skill or, are we more concerned with balance before and during the block? The answer should be both, and if that is the case, than turning the feet in is by far the most efficient approach.

Here's why...

1. In order to remain balanced and still create an angle with the chest that ensures that the ball heads down instead of forward after a block, the feet must come together to the point where the athlete feels the most comfortable. Any closer together than optimal comfortability and the hips might get too tight and the upper body, as a result, will stiffen and straighten up. Obviously, the goal would be to form the "tripod" effect. Where both knees and the feet together are all on the ground, supporting the hips and allowing the rest of the upper body to position itself however it needs to in order to direct the ball down towards the ground. All the while maintaining balance and control of our body and ball. (On blocks to the side, we don't need to achieve the "tripod" in order to maintain control of our body. Because we aren't replacing our feet with our knees, our feet will always be touching the ground, maintaining balance through the entire block).

EXAMPLES:

BLOCK DOWN THE MIDDLE -
https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohhwzcTBgsM1I9Wfu/giphy.gif

BLOCK TO SIDE - https://media.giphy.com/media/l1J9Da7yVdbQ1XL1e/giphy.gif


2. The problem with the "feet out" approach is that to get into a position where the feet are turned out, the athlete needs to drive the hips and knees forward. All of which, when combined, also lead to the upper body straightening. When the ball hits the perpendicular surface of the body in this position the ball will go forward rather than down. This will lead to the ball getting further away from the catcher, making it harder to make a play off of the block.


EXAMPLE:https://media.giphy.com/media/l1J9Qyuq3ro5rapqg/giphy.gif


3. I'll concede that having the feet turned out probably does allow the body to get up from the block quicker. Here's the problem...I don't really want to go up. If I am using the inside of my feet to propel my body upwards out of the block, and then have to go back down to the ground to pick up the ball, I am wasting time. I don't want to hop off the ground after a block. The hope is that we fired the block well enough to keep the ball within an arm's reach. To where the catcher can pick up the ball and throw from their knees (if their arm is strong enough and they are using efficient throwing patterns), or they can execute a "plant and pivot" where we use our upper body/hands to push our body off the ground, allowing us to keep our upper body closer to the ball. This eliminates a step in the process, getting us to release quicker.

EXAMPLE:https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohhwvmD68qlSDCLTO/giphy.gif


4. If the ball ends up in our glove, or is easy to pick up while standing up, we don't need to use the plant and pivot, and can simply stand up if we can immediately get rid of the ball. Regardless of whether or not the feet were turned out. It doesn't actually make it easier to stand up, it makes it harder to keep a ball close to the body after a block.

EXAMPLE:https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohhwCS5U5xEga7yLK/giphy.gif

Hope this info helps!
 

Greenmonsters

Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
Feb 21, 2009
6,168
38
New England
The response above, complete with not only the how but also the why and objective consideration of the alternative, is nothing less than I have come to expect from TCC and Jay and is consistent with his fathers mission to develop better catchers. I don't know anyone who does it better.
 

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