Still Lost on the infield fly rule

Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

Oct 11, 2018
231
43
Yes, umpires make weak or incorrect calls all the time. I spent several seasons as an ump and I blew my share of calls, so I accept that.

But tell me this, what is the problem with the umpire simply calling out "infield fly" or not, depending on his judgement, while the ball is in the air? No different from saying "out" or "safe" or "ball" or "strike"? In the case I cited all the ump had to do was yell out "infield fly the batter is out" and everyone would be clear about his judgement. Is there a problem with this that I'm not seeing? Why keep it a secret until after the play is over?

ArmWhip, the umpire SHOULD be calling the IFF exactly as you described. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. Call it in real time. I believe the argument is that if the umpire blew it and did not call it in real time, the umpire is still required to enforce the IFF if it is identified before the next pitch. When the umpire does enforce it after a delayed call, he should be correcting any negative impact his delay caused.

Although I am a long time umpire, I also used to coach for many years and I know of twice that an umpire enforced an IFF after the play was over and cost me both times. And the umpire didn't want to hear otherwise. That is bad umpiring and not the rule books fault.

By rule, the IFF should be called when the ball is at the top of its flight. By rule it should be a fly ball that can be caught by ordinary effort [umpire judgement]. If the umpire blows the call, maybe he/she forgot how many outs or where runners were, the umpire is required to fix it. However, if your lead runner got tagged out because of the delayed call or something like that, rule 10.3.3 [USA] says the umpire has to undo that problem he created.

So if the rule book is followed by a real time call or by implementing a delayed call and accounting for the jeopardy that the offense or defense was subjected to, everything should be OK. Its when there is a delayed call that is not properly assessed and corrected or poor judgement where a ball that couldn't be caught by Derek Jeter is call IFF, that we have problems. The rules should work. Its the human error that will throw a wrench into the works and then add in a stubborn umpire and we get into problems.
 
Mar 14, 2017
453
43
Michigan
Clearly not the same situation. Pretty hard for the ump to call ball or strike before the batter has to make a swing decision. With an infield fly the ump can make the call before the fielder catches or drops the ball and the runners (and fielders) doesn't have to guess.

You asked for a situation when a player had to make a decision based on what the ump might call. Close pitch... might be a ball might be a strike you can watch it go by to find out, or you can decide to swing.
 
Nov 30, 2018
359
43
Marikina, Philippines
The above ruleset is what we play 95% of the time. It says "declared". That sounds like its intended to be a verbal announcement by the umpire. Otherwise, wouldn't the rule just state something like "an infield fly occurs whenever a fair fly is hit..."?

Also see the "NOTE" - "When an IF is not initially called" - initially usually means first, or at the start of, and again, "called" is implying a verbal announcement.

Should the coaches be aware of the situation? Yes. (If you have enough coaches, have one pay attention to the umpires (if you get a 2-man crew) - they will often signal to each other between pitches.).

Should a 12C baserunner, base coach, and umpire all be expected to reach the same conclusion as to whether a fly ball near the IF is considered "routine"? No.

In the interest of fairness, and as I read the above rule, IF needs to be declared at the time of the play.

Well if that is how USSSA wants to play then I think we should all play by the same game!
Bases are loaded with one out! So if a pop-up goes to the pitcher, who intentionally lets it drop, while the umpire mulls over what he would like to call, or not call, then the pitcher should just say, "Well 'blue' I didn't know how many outs there were or how many baserunners there were. I was just responding to my catcher because you provided me with nothing to respond to!"

I guess I am condemning the USSSA's lack of logic or application of the rule.
 
Jun 11, 2013
2,619
113
It might be a close pitch but we expect the umpire to make the call pretty quickly so we don't have players jogging to second thinking the batter walked be because is should have been ball 4 or throw down on a 3-2 pitch that's strike 3 to end the inning. On trap or catch plays we don't wait until after the play is all done and have them say she caught it so all your runners who ran are now out. Umpires are mostly really good and make most of the right calls. IFF becomes less of an issue as you get older and they tend to catch Inifield flys but sometimes they miss calling it and should rectify the situation when possible.
 
May 6, 2015
2,397
113
Well if that is how USSSA wants to play then I think we should all play by the same game!
Bases are loaded with one out! So if a pop-up goes to the pitcher, who intentionally lets it drop, while the umpire mulls over what he would like to call, or not call, then the pitcher should just say, "Well 'blue' I didn't know how many outs there were or how many baserunners there were. I was just responding to my catcher because you provided me with nothing to respond to!"

I guess I am condemning the USSSA's lack of logic or application of the rule.
there is no lack of logic, if the pitcher plays it exactly as if it were a normal ground ball (ie throws home for a force, defense is not put in jeapordy, if IFF is on, no harm done, just throw it back to pitcher, next batter, if IFR is off, they get their out. however, if not CALLED, then offense is put in jeapordy, because if it drops, then coaches and runners believe they must try to advance, AFTER holding (not even getting to run on contact) to see if it is caught or not. they then run and get tagged out, only to hear after, IFR, batter is out.

No verbal call and then enforcement definitely puts offense at risk. better to not have it then to have it and misuse it to give easy outs/DPS to offense by calling it retroactively but not restoring baserunners.

The rule is clear about when it MAY be applied, but it is 100% judgement of umpire if it is on or not after ball is hit. no way for coaches or runners to know this without a clear verbal signal

brings to mind interesting story, 12u rec so no such thing as routine fly ball, we had blue once (working alone) who had lost his voice. he used whistle to get attention when needed, and used gestures (and overplayed them a bit) the entire game. I know some would say he should have called out, but if he did not do game, was likely to be cancelled. Young umpire, and actually one we liked a lot, as he was very enthusuiastic.
 
May 15, 2008
1,913
113
Cape Cod Mass.
My problem was not with the umpire's judgement about whether or not it was an infield fly, (although it was a terrible call) it was the fact that he did not verbalize his call, so I sent the runners and it resulted in an unnecessary out.

From the USSSA rule book, under Umpire duties:

When it seems apparent that a batted ball will be an infield fly, the Plate Umpire immediately announces it for the benefit of the runners. If the ball is near the base line the Umpire shall declare, “Infield fly, if fair.”

From the 2020 USA Softball Umpire Manual:

INFIELD FLY: 1) Stand up-right facing square to the play with feet shoulder-width apart and with eyes on the ball. 2) When the ball reaches its highest point extend your right arm above your head with fist closed and verbalize “Infield Fly, the batter is out” or if near a foul line, “Infield Fly, if fair, the batter is out.”

The post play corrections that I have read about all address an IF that is not called. How would the umpire correct an IF that is called but not verbalized or signaled?
 
Last edited:
Jun 22, 2008
3,731
113
If an umpire didnt verbally call or signal an infield fly, then how exactly would he have called it?
 
Nov 30, 2018
359
43
Marikina, Philippines
If an umpire didnt verbally call or signal an infield fly, then how exactly would he have called it?

Arm signal. Read ,"ArmWhips" post here:

"INFIELD FLY: 1) Stand up-right facing square to the play with feet shoulder-width apart and with eyes on the ball. 2) When the ball reaches its highest point extend your right arm above your head with fist closed and verbalize “Infield Fly, the batter is out” or if near a foul line, “Infield Fly, if fair, the batter is out.”

The post play corrections that I have read about all address an IF that is not called. How would the umpire correct an IF that is called but not verbalized or signaled?"
 
Last edited:
Nov 30, 2018
359
43
Marikina, Philippines
there is no lack of logic, if the pitcher plays it exactly as if it were a normal ground ball (ie throws home for a force, defense is not put in jeapordy, if IFF is on, no harm done, just throw it back to pitcher, next batter, if IFR is off, they get their out. however, if not CALLED, then offense is put in jeapordy, because if it drops, then coaches and runners believe they must try to advance, AFTER holding (not even getting to run on contact) to see if it is caught or not. they then run and get tagged out, only to hear after, IFR, batter is out.

No verbal call and then enforcement definitely puts offense at risk. better to not have it then to have it and misuse it to give easy outs/DPS to offense by calling it retroactively but not restoring baserunners.

The rule is clear about when it MAY be applied, but it is 100% judgement of umpire if it is on or not after ball is hit. no way for coaches or runners to know this without a clear verbal signal

brings to mind interesting story, 12u rec so no such thing as routine fly ball, we had blue once (working alone) who had lost his voice. he used whistle to get attention when needed, and used gestures (and overplayed them a bit) the entire game. I know some would say he should have called out, but if he did not do game, was likely to be cancelled. Young umpire, and actually one we liked a lot, as he was very enthusuiastic.

My post was tongue-in-cheek, frustration. It was not to be taken seriously.
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
If an umpire didnt verbally call or signal an infield fly, then how exactly would he have called it?

EqualWealthyCrab-size_restricted.gif
 

Forum statistics

Threads
42,830
Messages
679,478
Members
21,445
Latest member
Bmac81802
Top