TM vs JF

Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

May 24, 2013
12,461
113
So Cal
But TM acts like hes god.. so I'm pretty sure he doesn't believe it applies to him. If you don't follow "HIS" pattern then you are hamstringing your career.

Frye obviously doesn't have a clue about mechanics.. so the whole interview was pointless. Two things I got from that interview, Frye should just be quite about mechanics. TM solidified my thoughts on him being a complete immature jerk.

Just because Frye doesn't have a clue about mechanics doesn't make what TM teaches anymore valid.

The HLP is not TM's pattern in the sense that he invented something new. His claim is that he identified the pattern that is common with all the great hitters, and it's not what has been taught, even at the MLB level. He believes that learning this pattern will help hitters reach their maximum potential.

IMO, part of the issue was touched on during the segment. The game has changed. Frye's goal was to hit the ball on the ground, and that's something he did well with his out-front, push swing. Justin Turner has described a successful game as 4 hard-hit fly balls, regardless of the result.
 
Last edited:
May 12, 2016
4,338
113
Frye did what he intended on doing .. hitting ball into the ground, moving runners, playing small ball etc. So that worked for him,, that was his goal, and he had a successful career doing that. I compare Frye to a grinder in hockey, somebody who goes in the corners, retrieves the puck and gets in the hands of players who can put the puck in the net. Athletes have to use what they are gifted with.. not every athlete are gifted equally or with the same abilities. Frye took advantage of his.

Somebody like JD Martinez (Frye type swing) early in his career was not the same type of player as Frye.. his swing was actually detrimental to his success. He completely misunderstood what was meant by "down to". JD Martinez biggest improvement was the resulting barrel path. There is a big divide on what created the improvement in the barrel path.. and I don't care to rehash that again.

Point I am making is not all athletes are created equal, some have more power, some have speed etc etc. An athlete should take advantage of the gifts they have to help their team win and become the most successful player they can be. I believe Frye did that.. there are some really good slappers and drag bunt hitters in Fastpitch that a pitcher and the entire defense hates to face.
 

Cannonball

Ex "Expert"
Feb 25, 2009
4,854
113
The HLP is not TM's pattern in the sense that he invented something new. His claim is that he identified the pattern that is common with all the great hitters, and it's not what has been taught, even at the MLB level. He believes that learning this pattern will help hitters reach their maximum potential.

IMO, part of the issue was touched on during the segment. The game has changed. Frye's goal was to hit the ball on the ground, and that's something he did well with his out-front, push swing, Justin Turner has described a successful game as 4 hard-hit fly balls.
TM makes a lot of claims. I actually have quotes from him way way back and under numerous names like JoeBad, Rshard, Chameleon, Linear, ... The truth is, back in the day, he switched camps so often that your head would spin. Also, he took so many different positions on the swing. He was a member of "The Posse" back in the day and support Englishbey and Nyman. He jumped ship when Englishbey told him he was wrong about certain aspects of the swing. He did a 180 and believed in totally different things overnight.

IMO, what TM believes has been a composite of what a lot of guys threw around back in the day. I'd mention that he did not do "it" alone and had two main contributors to his belief system. SB and Donny Buster were two guys that I think added a lot of good content to those discussions back in the day. Donny and I were great friends and I miss him a lot. I would also state that TM has reverted back to a lot of Englishbey's stuff. Things like the neck swings stuff is pure Englishbey. A few of us have been around a long time and have much of this stuff and TM's changes copied. I have a PM from him welcoming me to Englishbey's website and stating that Englishbey was where it was at with regards to the swing. So, there is that!
 
May 24, 2013
12,461
113
So Cal
TM makes a lot of claims. I actually have quotes from him way way back and under numerous names like JoeBad, Rshard, Chameleon, Linear, ... The truth is, back in the day, he switched camps so often that your head would spin. Also, he took so many different positions on the swing. He was a member of "The Posse" back in the day and support Englishbey and Nyman. He jumped ship when Englishbey told him he was wrong about certain aspects of the swing. He did a 180 and believed in totally different things overnight.

IMO, what TM believes has been a composite of what a lot of guys threw around back in the day. I'd mention that he did not do "it" alone and had two main contributors to his belief system. SB and Donny Buster were two guys that I think added a lot of good content to those discussions back in the day. Donny and I were great friends and I miss him a lot. I would also state that TM has reverted back to a lot of Englishbey's stuff. Things like the neck swings stuff is pure Englishbey. A few of us have been around a long time and have much of this stuff and TM's changes copied. I have a PM from him welcoming me to Englishbey's website and stating that Englishbey was where it was at with regards to the swing. So, there is that!

Do any of us figure it out all at once? I know my journey in the study of hitting has deviated paths numerous times as the pieces have come together in my own head, and my understanding of what is happening has improved. I still continue to learn, and challenge my own beliefs.

That said, I'm not trying to be a TM apologist. The guy is a venomous @$$hole. My comment was about what he claims. It wasn't whether he is right or wrong about those claims.
 

Cannonball

Ex "Expert"
Feb 25, 2009
4,854
113
Do any of us figure it out all at once? I know my journey in the study of hitting has deviated paths numerous times as the pieces have come together in my own head, and my understanding of what is happening has improved. I still continue to learn, and challenge my own beliefs.

That said, I'm not trying to be a TM apologist. The guy is a venomous @$$hole. My comment was about what he claims. It wasn't whether he is right or wrong about those claims.
I agree and none of us figure it out on our own. If fact, if we stop learning then we are doing our players a disservice. We should all be trying to weigh the various arguments against each other. From there, whatever you decide to coach has to make sense to you, make sense to the player/hitter and then you have to be able to find drills that make sense for what you believe. Every day is a new challenge.
 
Apr 11, 2015
877
63
The HLP is not TM's pattern in the sense that he invented something new. His claim is that he identified the pattern that is common with all the great hitters, and it's not what has been taught, even at the MLB level. He believes that learning this pattern will help hitters reach their maximum potential.
Except nothing that he's "identified", and in his opinion that's "not what has been taught, even at the MLB level"...is all in Ted's "Science of Hitting" if you simply understand that changing the words doesn't mean the concepts are somehow different.

Rich's "bat speed behind his head" is nothing more than Ted's "loop in the swing". Everything Rich thinks he identified in the HL swing, Ted has in his 1969 book that he wrote with the help of John Underwood....and I literally mean everything.

Rich: "I don’t teach power, I teach quickness.

Ted: (Pg. 28) - Quickness with the bat is critical. (Pg 30) - The longer a batter can wait on a pitch, the less chance there is that he will be fooled. But waiting requires quickness. The ball seems on the verge of passing the bat but does not get by. (Pg. 39) - If I was behind a little, it didn’t hurt as much because if you are quick with the bat—and I preach quickness—you’ll do all right.

You name it, and it's there.

Heck, Ted even wrote about the reason behind this stupid TM & JF feud....
(Pg. 40) - Well, Cobb Frye was more of a push hitter, a slap hitter. He had great ability to push the ball, to lash hits all around. He was a great athlete, maybe the greatest, but he was a completely different animal from me TM, and his words were like Greek [to him].

(Pg. 42) - The arc of my swing was much greater than Cobb’s Jeff's. What he said would apply to guys more his type, guys who choked up on the bat more and pushed the ball around. That wasn’t in me. I was down, with a longer stroke, a greater arc [with bat speed behind my head].

(Pg. 47) - As I said, you have always heard that the ideal swing is level or “down.” Your swing often coincides with your physical capabilities. Certainly a Nellie Fox Jeff Frye had more of a level swing than a Mickey Mantle Aaron Judge, because Nellie Jeff didn’t knock down fences. Fox Frye was a great little punch hitter who concentrated on getting a piece of the ball, on being quick with the bat, on directing balls sharply through the holes instead of up in the air. He had his sights high—to get on top of the ball. A fly ball from a light hitter is usually an out. When the ball is on the ground it puts a greater burden on the fielders. Things can happen.
....some 50+ years before it even happened.

IMO, part of the issue was touched on during the segment. The game has changed. Frye's goal was to hit the ball on the ground, and that's something he did well with his out-front, push swing. Justin Turner has described a successful game as 4 hard-hit fly balls, regardless of the result.
Yep, just different types of hitters who see the game from different lens because of it.
 
Last edited:
Jan 6, 2009
6,591
113
Chehalis, Wa
But TM acts like hes god.. so I'm pretty sure he doesn't believe it applies to him. If you don't follow "HIS" pattern then you are hamstringing your career.

Frye obviously doesn't have a clue about mechanics.. so the whole interview was pointless. Two things I got from that interview, Frye should just be quiet about mechanics. TM solidified my thoughts on him being a complete immature jerk.

Just because Frye doesn't have a clue about mechanics doesn't make what TM teaches anymore valid.

Haughtiness, one of the 6 things, well 7 things God detests and hates.

edit: Not to judge anyone, but you shouldn’t call someone a fool and being haughty isn’t a good thing.😛
 
Last edited:
Nov 18, 2015
1,585
113
[From Ted Williams]
(Pg. 47) - ... Fox Frye was a great little punch hitter who concentrated on getting a piece of the ball, on being quick with the bat, on directing balls sharply through the holes instead of up in the air...

Just checked Baseball References for Nellie's stats. I think "quick with the bat" is an understatement. Over his 19 seasons, the MOST he ever struck out was 18. During the 6 seasons where he had over 700 PAs (721, 718, 717, 709, 706, and 700), his total Ks were 14, 13, 13, 15, 12, and 14. His career AB/K ratio was 42.74, 5th all time. That's what - about 1K every 2 weeks?

I looked through the All-Time leaders list here, and the next name I recognized on the list (after #1 Willie Keeler (retired in 1910) - 63AB /K?!?!) was #21 Cap Anson (1897) @ 31.15, #32 Nap Lajoie (1916) @ 27.64, #37 Pie Traynor (1937) @ 27.19, and #47 Tris Speaker (1928) @25.94. DiMaggio & Berra are #151 and 155, and are in the 18's. Ted himself is #591 with 10.87AB/K.

To find the top 2 active players, you have to keep scrolling down to #627 Andrelton Simmons @10.37, and #769 Dustin Pedroia @9.22. (And how the heck did Rey Ordonez end his career @9.19, right behind Ichiro Suzuki @9.20, but have a lifetime BA 65 pts lower? [.311 vs. .246] :unsure:). It’s definitely a different game from back then.

Apologies for the journey down the rabbit hole - I now return you to the #HittingTwitter wars.
 
Last edited:
May 12, 2016
4,338
113
TM believes he’s not only identified the HL pattern... but he can reproduce it and he can teach others how to reproduce it. I don’t agree with his view or methods on how to reproduce it.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TDS

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
42,830
Messages
679,478
Members
21,445
Latest member
Bmac81802
Top