Teaching to spin

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I’ve mentioned several times on here that I can’t find a pitching coach in my area. And over and over Im told I need to find DD a pitching coach. So I try to find her a “pitching coach” and Im not liking what im finding. So Im asking should DD be forcing shoulder forward with arm straight down releasing with hand on top the ball in order to throw a drop.
DD has a drop type spin that works when she lands with her stride foot (toe to plate) it goes down. Same pitch with foot at 45. it moves 6 in to right and down just a little. Im just trying to help DD advance she has good speed and location ability 8th grade 54mph pocket radar.
I coach relax the shoulders and whip because when she activate shoulders she muscles the ball and that makes for a bad day. I think I remember Mr Hillhouse saying every pitch should be the same that the only difference is the hand release.
So Im asking can someone please help me understand how to teach a high rotation spin a que or anything that may help me help my DD advance I feel she is in a good place so even a minimal gain is big. I just can’t willingly let someone take over her form that has never even heard of Internal rotation.
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
I assume you are talking about a 'roll over' drop which i read about alot of times on this forum. I think i recall coaches trying to get students to make moves that pulls down on the front of the ball. It doesn't exist. If this is not your description, then my apologies.

For the drop you are looking for, i remember a Facebook post by @dougromrell that showed that the arm whip was all the same as your normal I/R but the release was later and i think thumb orientation was slightly different. My apologies as i cannot find that post. There may have been something on FastpitchFoundations as well, but i am unsure.

If i find it i will post, but the intent is that in a normal I/R release, the ball has a 6-12 spin (pitchers perspective) but a slight yaw that angles that spin to the outside of the pitch. RHP it will look more like a 7-1. Boardmember has some GIFs of that. That being said, for a 'true' drop ball, the release happens slightly later to eliminate the yaw. My DD works on a 2 seam fastball which seems to have decent action, so we haven't worked on a 'true' drop ball, so i am unsure if the hips also should be a little more closed or not to help wait for that release. I think your comment on your DD's stride foot makes sense if she is allowing her rear hip to close a bit more, maybe the release is later.

again, if i can find it i will, as i am doing a terrible job of explaining, i guess my point is that your DD should not be changing much if any of her true I/R motions for this. I am having a tough time finding the content but will post if i can.
 
Sep 19, 2018
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93
I am not suggesting going this way, but it may be worth investigating. Since Covid, my dd's PC has offered virtual / Face time lessons. Her coach much prefers real in person but..... I would not be shocked if some of our more accomplished PC's can help quite a bit even virtually.

My dd is just starting to learn the drop. She already finishes palm down and often gets down movement anyway. So coach has focused on a more downward tilt of the hip instead of the normal slight upward tilt. That is it. Edit: it is possible (probable??) that there is a change in grip. I somehow don't remember.
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
I am not suggesting going this way, but it may be worth investigating. Since Covid, my dd's PC has offered virtual / Face time lessons. Her coach much prefers real in person but..... I would not be shocked if some of our more accomplished PC's can help quite a bit even virtually.

My dd is just starting to learn the drop. She already finishes palm down and often gets down movement anyway. So coach has focused on a more downward tilt of the hip instead of the normal slight upward tilt. That is it. Edit: it is possible (probable??) that there is a change in grip. I somehow don't remember.
As a follow up, @dougromrell does virtual stuff. We had him analyze some video, and met him at a Rick Pauly clinic. He knows what he is doing.
 
Aug 20, 2017
1,474
113
As a follow up, @dougromrell does virtual stuff. We had him analyze some video, and met him at a Rick Pauly clinic. He knows what he is doing.
Doug has done some video stuff with my dd and it was very helpful! He quickly identified our issues and what to work on. He would tell me what to do and video it and send it back to him. Found him on “the bullpen” Facebook page
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,133
113
Dallas, Texas
So Im asking can someone please help me understand how to teach a high rotation spin a que or anything that may help me help my DD advance I feel she is in a good place so even a minimal gain is big. I just can’t willingly let someone take over her form that has never even heard of Internal rotation.
As a quick note: There is no peel drop. There is no roll over drop. The mechanics are the same. The difference between a fastball and a drop is the speed of the IR of the forearm. The faster the IR, the more 12-6 spin you get.

There are two parts to increasing spin on a drop ball:
a) Increase speed of forearm rotation.
b) Finger snap at release

FOREARM ROTATION

The palm goes from:

(1) Palm up at 9
(2) Palm facing 3B
(3) Palm facing home at release. (This is mandatory, of course.)
(4) Palm facing 1B.
(5) Palm down.

For a normal fastball, the IR rotation is slow. For a drop ball, the IR rotation is faster. The rotation is compressed.

I've attached a picture of Sarah Pauling. The picture on the left is her throwing a fastball. The picture on the right is her throwing a drop. The palm rotates to facing 1B sooner on the drop than for a fastball. This means that the IR is faster, which results in greater spin on the ball than the normal fastball. Attached is Folkard throwing a drop ball. Notice that the palm is facing 3B and the hand is below his belt.

The next picture shows the positions of my DD's hand and Sarah's hand after release of a drop ball. In both pictures, you see how quickly the hand has gone from facing 3B to facing 1B.

THE CLAW

The final picture shows Sarah Pauly's hand and my DD's hand immediately after release. Notice the weird position of the fingers and thumb. My DD says that the thumb and fingers "snap" at release. A good drop occurs whenever she heard an audible snap of the fingers and thumb at release.

THE DRILL

This is the drill my DD came up within college to work on her drop ball release. If she was having trouble with her drop, she would do this drill.

The first pitch is so-so. The next two pitches are *BAD*. The ball has a tremendous amount of top spin on the ball. However, the release is too late, causing the ball to jump forward. The fourth and fifth release are good. When the ball goes back up, the pitch is good. When the ball jumps forward due to the top spin, the pitch is bad.


 

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Feb 10, 2018
496
93
NoVA
There is a very good, simple drill to help get the kind of violent forearm pronation at release of your drop ball that Sluggers describes above. It is called "Fastball Bounce." Have your DD throw a fastball and try to bounce the ball 10-15' in front of her. She is intentionally throwing the ball into the ground and trying to bounce it as high as she can. This drill promotes rapid forearm pronation and the correct finish for the drop. It will also promote keeping the ball down. Have her throw two or three of these and then have her throw her drop ball. You don't need to do this from 43' straight away. You can start at 20 or 25' at lower energy and gradually work your way back to the rubber with full intensity. If the drop ball is not giving you the right action or is going high, have her throw one or two "Fastball Bounces" and go back to it. I use this drill with my DD, who is also learning the drop ball, and it works very well.

One other suggestion: Although you can use a low-tech method (e.g., taped ball) to see spin, I would suggest getting a Diamond Kinetics ball if you are going to work on movement pitches. It is relatively inexpensive and a great tool. It will give you both spin axis (which ideally should be 6 o'clock for the drop) and spin rate, in addition to other useful data. If you measure it, it matters. As with radar guns and speed, your DD can challenge herself to improve her spin axis and spin rates...but only if she knows what they are.

(The RevFire ball is also a great tool, but I think the DK ball is superior because it gives you spin axis in addition to spin rates).
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
THE DRILL

This is the drill my DD came up within college to work on her drop ball release. If she was having trouble with her drop, she would do this drill.

The first pitch is so-so. The next two pitches are *BAD*. The ball has a tremendous amount of top spin on the ball. However, the release is too late, causing the ball to jump forward. The fourth and fifth release are good. When the ball goes back up, the pitch is good. When the ball jumps forward due to the top spin, the pitch is bad.



Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! This reminds me so much now of the hitters (like Pujols) saying hit 'Down to' the ball and everyone shows demo's of them with no posture swinging from A to C with nothing else but square shoulders and extended arms.

The roll over drop, for purposes of old school pitchers who thought that the hands actually went over the front of the ball before release, were actually doing and practicing, or at least thinking that is what they did which allowed for a quicker IR which allowed for a stronger spin drop ball.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,133
113
Dallas, Texas
The roll over drop, for purposes of old school pitchers who thought that the hands actually went over the front of the ball before release, were actually doing and practicing, or at least thinking that is what they did which allowed for a quicker IR which allowed for a stronger spin drop ball.

Exactly.

When my DD first showed me the drill, I though that the pitches which had tons of topspin were the "good" pitches. She corrected me and said that means that the release was sloppy--which meant that the release wasn't compact enough.

My DD learned the pitch from a D1 college pitcher playing for Ken Ericksen at South Florida. The college pitcher told my DD to think "screw the ball into the floor"--which is the IR movement, except done quicker. After a couple of pitches, DD was getting really sharp breaks on the ball.

After getting the pitch to move, my DD worked very hard on getting the initial pitch height sufficient. To fool good batters, it has to look like a belt high fastball.
 

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