Bullet spin, spin/ball release.

fanboi22 said:

I am 100% sure it is my DD not doing something correct, but she has (what seems to me) more downward movement on a 2 seam drop. Granted she doesn't throw a perfect 12-6 and it gets some sideways movement as well. Am i seeing things? I guess i had assumed that the 4 seam gave an evenly distributed disruption vs the 2 seam which has more of a wobble aspect to it. Even when i try to throw an overhand curve i have more movement throwing in a 2 seam orientation. Thanks in advance for the comment. Maybe there is another thread out there for this question.

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Seeing spin direction is not too difficult, especially if you are catching. Detecting seam orientation on a moving, spinning ball is much harder. Just because you grip the ball a certain way and try to spin it a certain way doesn't mean that it is actually doing what you think it is. The spin axis and direction might be spot on but the seam orientation might be way off. The release can effect the ball in ways that are surprising..

If you want to check seam orientation take a ball and draw two 2 inch black circles on opposite sides of the ball. I use the places where the two seams come closest to each other. Now, with a true 4 seam rotation (around the center axis of the ball) the black circles will be stationary or close to it. But here is where it gets tricky. With a 'perfect' drop or rise the black circles should be on the sides of the ball, at 90 degrees to the direction the ball is traveling. If the dots are stationary but one is a little forward and the other a little behind then the spin axis is tipped a little. If the dots are wobbling or can't be detected then the seams are not in true 4 seam rotation. A perfect curveball would have one dot on top and the other on the bottom. Perfect bulletspin would have one dot in front and one dot on the back. This is for 4 seam orientation, for 2 seam rotation/orientation the dots would be spinning in a circle like a ferris wheel (and be difficult to see).

I had a mind bending experience this week that has me questioning some assumptions that I have about how to throw the riseball. I have a pitcher who can reliably throw very good backspin, often 12-6 at least 11-5. We were using the ball with 2 dots and working on getting 4 seam orientation on her rise. With her fastball the dots are close to the sides, stationary and tipped about 20 degrees to the right., so mostly topspin. She uses a 4 finger across the seams grip. She has a unique riseball grip, 2 fingers but across the seams like her fastball. We switched her grip so her fingers were lined up with the long seams and not across them. This should give 4 seam rotation but we could not get the dots to line up on the sides of the ball, spin axis was good, seam orientation was not. Finally I asked her to go back to her regular grip, and surprise, the dots were on the sides, a little wobble to them but there they were. WTF! So she can use the same grip on both her rise and drop, one is 4 finger and one 2 finger but the fingers line up across the seams the same way. There can be only one answer, what is it?

ArmWhip said:

The spin axis and direction might be spot on but the seam orientation might be way off. The release can effect the ball in ways that are surprising..

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People keep chasing the seam orientation unicorn.

Seam orientation as far as ball movement is a myth. Here is the study: https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2018-11/aps-eaf111318.php Parents and teachers are wasting all this time trying to get the seams oriented correctly on a softball when it doesn't matter.

Or, read this: https://phys.org/news/2019-02-laminar-two-seam-fastball.html

The real way to make a movement pitch effective is control. But, control of a movement pitch is really hard, because it takes the pitcher working her rear end off.

People take concepts from baseball and put them into softball. The two seam fastball moves more than a four seam fastball, but not because of the orientation of the seams. There is a different grip used on the four seam vs the two seam, which changes the spin put on the ball. Also, in baseball, a pitcher can change the arm slot (the angle of the arm to the body when the ball is released.) The arm slot in softball is set and cant' be changed. .

There is nothing in the study that addresses the difference between 4 seams and 2 seams rotating in a given direction. It talks about the knuckleball and 2 seam fastballs that are released with finger pressure to tilt the axis. Since seams have a major effect on air flow around the ball it stands to reason that having 4 seams rotating perpendicular to the direction of travel should be better than 2 seams or random seam orientation. Seams create more friction than the smooth part of the ball.

This is the study that you should be linking to;

Don't care how they do it but if you give me some pitchers who can make the ball move in a couple directions about 10 feet from the plate and a good defense, I can be a good coach

My DD had a bullet spin issue which always got worse when I had her try to throw harder. It led me to believe that her issue was due to her wrist being stiff and somewhat bent at release, causing a side spin release. I later confirmed this with a slow mo video that I took of her. The issue still pops up from time to time, and telling her to relax her upper body and arms has really corrected this for us.

BigSkyHi said:

Don't care how they do it but if you give me some pitchers who can make the ball move in a couple directions about 10 feet from the plate and a good defense, I can be a good coach

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Are you Leo Mazzone in disguise?

hummingbird said:

My DD had a bullet spin issue which always got worse when I had her try to throw harder. It led me to believe that her issue was due to her wrist being stiff and somewhat bent at release, causing a side spin release. I later confirmed this with a slow mo video that I took of her. The issue still pops up from time to time, and telling her to relax her upper body and arms has really corrected this for us.

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I try not to use the word 'harder' and when I do I correct myself. It often makes pitchers tighten up their muscles. I will tell them to throw 'faster' and try to add 'loose, or 'whippy' in there.

2pitchmom said:

21 minutes ago
Hello,
My daughter is a 12u pitcher. We are pitching IR. My daughter used to have a beautiful 12-6 spin. Now it is the dreaded bullet spin for about 8 months.. She has also stalled in her speed growth. Any suggestions on how to get her to have better awareness of her hand/ fingers. Or release point.
She has a great work ethic but is getting frustrated when trying to fix this because she can’t feel it or doesn’t know how to or what is Causing it. How do I get her to stay behind the ball.

Myself not ever playing softball. I struggle
To correct her . Maybe someone with a trained eye could see this better?

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My daughter plays 12u for Birm. Thunderbolts 07. When we switched to Tincher Pitching, it was amazing for her movement and spin. Then she grew...haha... puberty and this age is grueling until they stop growing. I also played, but didn't pitch, so I understand your frustration. Tincher is amazing, but you have to be okay with change going into it. They are constantly evaluating what is best and most productive through science and the body. They work with Andrews Institute and track player movements, muscles, maximizing certain muscles and movements, etc. All are supposed to, first keep the pitcher healthy, and also to develop speed and movement. Recently, many of the tincher instructors went to a different arm motion. It made a massive difference on my daughter's spin. I would look into it. Follow the Tincher facebook page. They recently did some live videos with instructors. Now, instead of ball to 2nd base on the backswing, mine uses ball up/elbow to 2nd base. It helps keep her elbow in the slot and the spin is far better. Her riseball has nearly perfect 12-6 spin again. She has been the youngest on her team as she's almost an 08 and often plays up vs 14s. She has to have spin and movement to compete with such great hitters. So glad to see you wanting her spin to be great!!!!!! Keep working!

2pitchmom said:

21 minutes ago
Hello,
My daughter is a 12u pitcher. We are pitching IR. My daughter used to have a beautiful 12-6 spin. Now it is the dreaded bullet spin for about 8 months.. She has also stalled in her speed growth. Any suggestions on how to get her to have better awareness of her hand/ fingers. Or release point.
She has a great work ethic but is getting frustrated when trying to fix this because she can’t feel it or doesn’t know how to or what is Causing it. How do I get her to stay behind the ball.

Myself not ever playing softball. I struggle
To correct her . Maybe someone with a trained eye could see this better?

Click to expand...

also on the speed.... let puberty happen. Just when their brain figures out their body, they grow again and it sends their mind on a fritz. I have seen some develop speed all at once and others develop gradually. focus on the CORE CORE CORE. Lots of training on the core, scaps, glutes, etc.