Pitching instructor won’t allow dd coach to attend lesson

MadBandit22 · Jan 9, 2020

Hillhouse said:
I do NOT understand. I welcome head coaches so they know what to look for, verbal cues and what to say when things go haywire. Personally I try to spend a lot of time educating the parents (and coaches if they attend) in addition to the student so everyone is on the same page and everyone knows what to look for and say when needed. Yes, if the HC or anyone is constantly interjecting with the lesson, trying to put his/her stamp on things, then I can see the issue. And this has happened before, where I just flip the ball to the coach or to Dad and ask them to show me since they are obviously better at this than I am. Please demonstrate for me so can learn from all your pitching experience. I have no problem discussing how or why I do a certain thing, but if you're going to argue with me... better be prepared to back it up.

RE: female pitching coach. I'm curious if this is because 90% of male pitching coaches weren't actually pitchers? Out of curiosity, has she been to a male who actually pitched fastpitch? I'm not arguing the "connection" factor... some girls connect better with female coaches. Others do not. I'm just curious if this preference is due to your DD not having confidence in someone who's never been in the circle before themselves.

Bill

Very simple really Bill. I don’t want the student distracted during the lesson if the coach disagrees with what the PC is trying to teach. One on one during the lesson I’m paying for and after the lesson HC & PC can communicate about anything necessary.
As far as male pitching coaches goes I think it relates to Fastpitch being a female sport and baseball a male sport. In our area there are no Fastpitch male teams and it’s not common on TV or what have you.
Perception I guess. A woman knowing a woman’s body better than a man. I understand there are Olympic mens Fastpitch teams but I’ve never seen them play.
Girls play fastpitch, boys play baseball , and old athletes play slowpitch. Just the way it is in our area.

Hillhouse · Jan 9, 2020

MadBandit22 said:
Very simple really Bill. I don’t want the student distracted during the lesson if the coach disagrees with what the PC is trying to teach. One on one during the lesson I’m paying for and after the lesson HC & PC can communicate about anything necessary.
As far as male pitching coaches goes I think it relates to Fastpitch being a female sport and baseball a male sport. In our area there are no Fastpitch male teams and it’s not common on TV or what have you.
Perception I guess. A woman knowing a woman’s body better than a man. I understand there are Olympic mens Fastpitch teams but I’ve never seen them play.
Girls play fastpitch, boys play baseball , and old athletes play slowpitch. Just the way it is in our area.

Wait a minute, you mentioned the HC being a "distraction".... that's a different story. To attend the lessons, hear what's being taught, and being able to help the pitcher in games when the pitching coach isn't there is a different situation!! Absolutely, if the coach is a distraction then they shouldn't attend. No question, end of story. But for a coach that wants to learn how to help the pitcher in games, how to help the team win, and simply to learn the game.. then it's kinda petty to not let them in.

Fastpitch is a female sport huh? Ok, I will concede that the men's fastpitch game is no where near what it was 30, 20 or even 10 years ago. But, you obviously don't know your history of the game. The female game today only exists because of the men's game of yesteryear. Men's fastpitch used to be what the female game is today, played at every ballpark coast to coast. And slight correction, there is no, and never has been, Olympic men's fastpitch teams. There are National teams but not Olympic. Subtle but important difference.

That said, was your DD taught to throw overhand the same way as boys? Swing a bat? Run bases? I'm guessing so, therefore you lose your argument about the "women's body" thing. Any woman I've ever dated will confirm that I (and most men) know nothing about the female body.. ha ha... but somehow softball pitching has become the center piece for the differences in the genders. Yet, shortstops throw overhand the same as boys, the swing is now the same as boys baseball, they catch fly balls and grounders the same as boys, and run bases the same way... but when it comes to pitching "Oh, we're 100% different!!!!" Bullcrap. Do not confuse the RULES for pitching (men and women) with the mechanics of pitching. Put me side by side with Cat Osterman and you will see more similarities than differences.

what you described is not just "in your area". There isn't much men's fastpitch to speak of nationwide. And I'll say it again, I have no problem with your DD saying she can relate better to a female. I was just curious about that statement, and I think you answered my question about it being because MOST men have not pitched before. However, as an experiment, ask your coach if she learned pitching from a man or woman. If she says woman, ask if THAT coach learned from a male or female. I don't think it will take more than 2 "generations" before you come to a men's fastpitch pitcher as the original coach. And NOOOOOOOOO, I'm not saying men are the end all, be all of pitching!!! there's a lot out there with really crappy mechanics that don't know how to teach pitching. And this speaks nothing to your DD's preference!!! But if it's because "men don't play fastpitch" then she could be missing out on some great instruction from those that have played/pitched.

Bill

Cannonball · Jan 9, 2020

Now I know where I messed up. I didn't call what I teach/coach my "intellectual property." If only I had thought of this, I might have been rich. Is it too late? Can I convince all of you to forget all of the stuff I've posted here and start again as if I were really smart and had something special for you to purchase?

MadBandit22 · Jan 9, 2020

Hillhouse said:
Wait a minute, you mentioned the HC being a "distraction".... that's a different story. To attend the lessons, hear what's being taught, and being able to help the pitcher in games when the pitching coach isn't there is a different situation!! Absolutely, if the coach is a distraction then they shouldn't attend. No question, end of story. But for a coach that wants to learn how to help the pitcher in games, how to help the team win, and simply to learn the game.. then it's kinda petty to not let them in.

Fastpitch is a female sport huh? Ok, I will concede that the men's fastpitch game is no where near what it was 30, 20 or even 10 years ago. But, you obviously don't know your history of the game. The female game today only exists because of the men's game of yesteryear. Men's fastpitch used to be what the female game is today, played at every ballpark coast to coast. And slight correction, there is no, and never has been, Olympic men's fastpitch teams. There are National teams but not Olympic. Subtle but important difference.

That said, was your DD taught to throw overhand the same way as boys? Swing a bat? Run bases? I'm guessing so, therefore you lose your argument about the "women's body" thing. Any woman I've ever dated will confirm that I (and most men) know nothing about the female body.. ha ha... but somehow softball pitching has become the center piece for the differences in the genders. Yet, shortstops throw overhand the same as boys, the swing is now the same as boys baseball, they catch fly balls and grounders the same as boys, and run bases the same way... but when it comes to pitching "Oh, we're 100% different!!!!" Bullcrap. Do not confuse the RULES for pitching (men and women) with the mechanics of pitching. Put me side by side with Cat Osterman and you will see more similarities than differences.

what you described is not just "in your area". There isn't much men's fastpitch to speak of nationwide. And I'll say it again, I have no problem with your DD saying she can relate better to a female. I was just curious about that statement, and I think you answered my question about it being because MOST men have not pitched before. However, as an experiment, ask your coach if she learned pitching from a man or woman. If she says woman, ask if THAT coach learned from a male or female. I don't think it will take more than 2 "generations" before you come to a men's fastpitch pitcher as the original coach. And NOOOOOOOOO, I'm not saying men are the end all, be all of pitching!!! there's a lot out there with really crappy mechanics that don't know how to teach pitching. And this speaks nothing to your DD's preference!!! But if it's because "men don't play fastpitch" then she could be missing out on some great instruction from those that have played/pitched.

Bill

I believe it to be like I mentioned Bill the girls see other females doing the pitching on TV and giving instruction. I guess it’s a confidence thing.
I have the issue with one of my daughters who gives me a hell of a time when I try and work with her. She has never seen me throw a windmill pitch and therefore thinks I know nothing about pitching.
I have done lots of research and studied mechanics of the best in the game. I have also had her evaluated by some qualified pitching coaches to reinforce she has sound mechanics.
It’s the old show me don’t tell me thing with her. You get instant respect if you can do what she is trying to do but if she doesn’t get that visual your wasting your time.
I don’t know jack about the men’s Fastpitch game. I don’t have any reason to. It’s not an option in our area and honestly if it was I still wouldn’t care. I prefer watching women play softball.
I group Olympic/National team in the same category. Reason being our National team is usually our representative in the Olympics if the said sport is included in the Olympics. Slight distinction yes but really splitting hairs.

BT3100 · Jan 9, 2020

JOHNN said:
If I was the head coach Id have a problem with this mindset from a parent. His position as Head Coach is to have a pulse on the ENTIRE team, not just certain girls. I'm not saying he should micromanage whats going on, but at the end of the day, he is responsible for the entire teams development and success. I completely understand him wanting to be there to see whats being taught to one of HIS pitchers, because how else would he know how to ever help her? Imagine if you were a fly on the wall in a company meeting with the CEO, Head of Sales, and Head of Operations. The CEO decides to ask the Ops guy why he has the workers doing certain tasks and his response to the CEO is, "my job is to keep the factory running, you dont need to interfere". Im willing to bet that wouldnt go over very well and its the same principal as the softball situation.

From the way the OP mentioned, it seemed to me like he had questions as to why the PI was teaching that particular method and wanted clarity, that's all. Most coaches out there know there's more than one way to do something and if it helps add to the teams success, 99.9% of the time they are all for it. As mentioned by others previously, if the head coach is going to be working with her the most, you'd think it'd be common sense for him to be able to reinforce what is being taught to the pitcher.

With the way this PI barely wants to work with girls, and his attitude toward anyone else being there, it almost seems like he actually DOES want the girls dependent on him and he is just about dragging on any progression being made.

When my kid was 10 I'd probably agree with ya. But now that that she is 16 I understand better. I would say about 90% of coaches (10% may have kids who pitch) don't really have the time, desire or skill to "help a pitcher during a game". What are they gonna say? Turn your foot 15 degrees more? Pitchers are a different breed and coming to a few lessons won't help the coach understand what years of lessons have taught or not taught her. Pitchers are there to execute a pitch set, work batters and move the ball around. The smartest and most effective coaches that DD has had during our ride have been those who let her do her job, and if she is struggling settle her then if she can't get it right pull her. Pitchers don't need Parents, PC's and HC's all telling them what to do. If you want them to really be effective, I mean super effective then find a superb PC and turn her over to them and protect her from outside influences.

Ken B · Jan 9, 2020

I'd love it if every team HC or AC attended once in a while.

I lucked out tonight having been invited to a HS by the HC to work with two of my pitchers. He sat quietly and observed, occasionally asking for clarification. He was a men's FP player/catcher and talked about his year with the King and having played with or against Piechnik, White, Hillhouse and a few others. After, we sat down and reviewed each girl's focus points which he said he would help reinforce. It was a really good session.

Following, I stopped by a brand new facility with Rapsodo, HitTrax and other goodies, only to see a team PC teaching classic HE... I'd hoped I'd never see it again, but dang...

jacman · Jan 10, 2020

BT31000, you struck a nerve suggesting that parents and team coaches are outsiders to their own DD's game.

If a player isn't really committed, let her play a couple years of rec ball and move on to something she fins a passion for. But if she's serious, I don't get the idea that parents and team coaches get out of the way and let only a PC (or batting coach or whatever) have their way. A parent, a HC... these are not outside influences.

To the contrary, parents of a serious player (and coaches who lead such players) have a responsibility to learn all they can so they can guide and sometimes even protect a player from poor private coaches or other poor situations. This also means learning the dynamics of various teams and coaches to help find a good match.

It's a huge amount of work, and takes a lot of time, but I wonder how many players with dreams of playing in college never made it because nobody took the time to learn enough to be able to pick the right instructors, find the right teams or learn the right skills. I'm sure we've all seen more than a few.

I doubt I missed a dozen of DD's lessons in 7+ years, hitting, pitching, fielding combined. For me it was never about telling DD what to do, but reinforcing what her private coaches taught. Helping her notice things she didn't always see, giving her a chance to make her own adjustments or forming questions to ask at the next lesson. And if If I ever got off the page with an instructor, she was free to say so, and we got clarification. I went to other clinics, and otherwise took time to learn what I could. I gained the respect of the instructors, and they certainly had mine.

When she began visiting colleges, I asked questions of the coach (and so did she) to gauge their knowledge and nature. I won't try to convince anyone I know more than a good college coach, but say a college PC doesn't understand and utilize I/R mechanics - and there is a sad number who don't - then it's not going to be a good fit.

DD did all the work and a lot of it, I supported and encouraged. I asked questions, she made choices. I helped a bit with navigation, she did all the driving. Sometimes I gave her ideas, and sometimes she tested them. Now she's thrilled with her college situation... and I miss the time we spent. But she's was prepared to take those next steps and move on as she should.

And all those hours we spent learning and practicing together? That helped build an unbreakable bond when we needed one.

Parents, please don't be outsiders to your DDs softball experience. But for heaven's sake don't just meddle. Make sure you take time to learn how to be a good insider.

Westwind · Jan 10, 2020

MadBandit22 said:
I prefer a female pitching instructor. My DD won’t give a male instructor the time of day. There are many good male instructors out there but if given the choice I would go with female instructors.

MadBandit22 said:
I have done lots of research and studied mechanics of the best in the game. I have also had her evaluated by some qualified pitching coaches to reinforce she has sound mechanics.
It’s the old show me don’t tell me thing with her. You get instant respect if you can do what she is trying to do but if she doesn’t get that visual your wasting your time.

MB, since Bill is too nice of a guy to tell you, you are lecturing a guy who was one of the best men’s pitchers in the world. He competed with full grown men when he was too young to have a drivers license. He has a ball in his hand and a glove on the other during his lessons. Yes, he can demonstrate. Yes, his mechanics are not only suitable for the female body, they are ideal.

He also is regarded as one of the top instructors in the country. He has spoken at pretty much every fast pitch coaches convention there is. Bill has made enormous contributions to the women’s fastpitch world and his pitchers and a few hitters are sprinkled all over the highest levels of softball. If you know what you are looking for, you will see his influences on top female pitchers.

As far as female players connecting with Bill.... Well I doubt there’s many humans that Bill can’t connect with. People get on airplanes to take lessons from him.

Don’t hate him because he’s beautiful. (Inside joke.)

_MIA_ · Jan 10, 2020

I would find a new instructor. The PI might know their stuff but their actions seem to demonstrate they don't have the player's best interests in mind.

I think @Cannonball has mentioned that his hitting lessons often go over the allotted time. In the short run doing things like what OP PI is doing might be good for business but the type of attitude that @Hillhouse or @Cannonball display will typically win out in the end. Parents are trusting that an instructor is going to help with their child's long term progress; they have to feel that the instructor has the kid's best interests in mind and not only their pocketbook.

MadBandit22 · Jan 10, 2020

Westwind said:
MB, since Bill is too nice of a guy to tell you, you are lecturing a guy who was one of the best men’s pitchers in the world. He competed with full grown men when he was too young to have a drivers license. He has a ball in his hand and a glove on the other during his lessons. Yes, he can demonstrate. Yes, his mechanics are not only suitable for the female body, they are ideal.

He also is regarded as one of the top instructors in the country. He has spoken at pretty much every fast pitch coaches convention there is. Bill has made enormous contributions to the women’s fastpitch world and his pitchers and a few hitters are sprinkled all over the highest levels of softball. If you know what you are looking for, you will see his influences on top female pitchers.

As far as female players connecting with Bill.... Well I doubt there’s many humans that Bill can’t connect with. People get on airplanes to take lessons from him.

Don’t hate him because he’s beautiful. (Inside joke.)

I’m well aware of who Bill is WW.

Pitching instructor won’t allow dd coach to attend lesson

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