Is H.S. ball worth the time?

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vicimus said:

Obviously, 100% is due to DD's work, but I was speaking of external factors and her club coach will be given 100% credit, since she's had 4 coaches in the last 4 years, and he's the only *real* coach who knows how to coach, doesn't play mommy/daddy ball, and has *proven* D1 player development experience. My only regret is that we didn't find him 6 years ago in 10U. DD's private tryout with him in the fall was a humbling experience and lasted 4 hours where he broke down every aspect of her game (pitching, fielding, throwing, hitting) that she was taught wrong, and in that first month he made an *IMMEDIATE* positive impact on *EVERY* aspect of her game!

Where as DD's HS coach is exactly the opposite!

As far as talking to parents, there's plenty of compelling former parent *thank you* letters posted on the team's social media and web site, and that freshman's father actually attended the club's fall kick off meeting where he tore up the tuition check that he didn't have to send to the college, since his daughter got a free ride thanks to the coach.

I appreciate your skepticism given that club you mentioned below, but this club is not that situation. Basically, this club has 2 coaches that have taken 10U/12U teams through 18U and the recruiting process at least 3 times in the last 10-12 years, and have plenty (more than 5) of D1 developed players (and scholarships) to show for it. If anything, other clubs around here have claimed some D1 players who started on this club.

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Wish I had a dollar for every 14U parent who thinks their TB coach is the next coming of Christ and their HS coach is an idiot.

Sorry, your guy is probably a good coach, but he’s a fraud. A good coach doesn’t promise or even suggest a kid might get a full ride. The parent ripping up a check is nothing more than an infomercial stunt. D1 schools have 20+ kids and 12 scholarships. “But my kid is a pitcher and they get the full rides”. Try again. D1’s carry 4+ pitchers and are using staff’s instead of an ace. Do you think they’re tying up 1/3 of their scholarship money in one position? The other dead giveaway is a good coach prepares kids for the right college and doesn’t focus on D1. It’s mind-blowing how you write as if D1 is the utopia of softball and then you list a bunch of crappy conferences to play in. A school is on the top 100’s? Whoop de do. Some of those schools would get routed by the better D2 and schools.

It takes good coaching to get your kid to be able to play in college. There’s thousands of them out there though. Any coach who acts like he’s got a monopoly on it or is the only team around with the right contacts is a clown. Push aside the kool aid and run for the hills. Find someone who cares more about your DD than his own resume.

I wish your DD the best of luck and hope she's able to live her dream and not yours.

Feel free to reread every response of mine, but you will not find anywhere that I said DD coach promised her anything. He's just the opposite. He's the one that gave her a dose of reality that there are not many D1 pitchers shorter than 5'7", and asked her if she wanted to play D1 or pitch D1? He's the one that set the expectation that she's got a helluva lot of work to do to have a chance at D1, and if she did, it would probably most-likely be due to her bat more than her pitching.

Now, what I'm saying is that at least in our area, DD's club coach has the *most* proven track record of any other club coach around, and given that he (YES HE!) was the one that developed (at least the last 4 years!) the freshman who got a full ride to my DD's #1 D1 school, I'm 1000% sure that *IF* DD follows the same path, it will be due to her club coach and ZERO percent due to her HS coach.

However, DD's HS coach is a clueless offensive idiot who's only credential is that she graduate from DD's school many years ago. What coach tells a hitter who goes 5 for 5 two games in a row with the lion share of RBIs that, "you don't have to hit a HR at every at bat." Same HS coach that tells another girl that, "Her pitching is sh!t!" And, her clean up hitter that she's "too fat and too slow!" Very constructive considering between her and my DD, that's 90% of her offense! Same HS coach that has my DD intentionally walk the #3 hitter to put the tying run on 1B in the 7th to pitch to the clean up hitter! Thankfully, DD got out of that one! Same HS coach that let the umpire give the batter 1B even though he called a strike but the batter said it touched her elbow! Obviously, a HS coach that hasn't read the rule book!

As far as *crappy* conferences, like I said, DD's #1 selection criteria is computer science, which is why her #1 choice is #14 in the nation for computer science, and many other schools in these conferences have excellent computer science programs even though only a couple of them made the top 50 softball teams. So, if she plays softball for *ANY* D1 school with a decent computer science program and graduates with a $80k+ job, then *MISSION ACCOMPLISHED*!

And, let me assure you it's *HER* dream--not mine, since if it was up to me she would be playing lacrosse! ;-)

MNDad said:

Wish I had a dollar for every 14U parent who thinks their TB coach is the next coming of Christ and their HS coach is an idiot.

Sorry, your guy is probably a good coach, but he’s a fraud. A good coach doesn’t promise or even suggest a kid might get a full ride. The parent ripping up a check is nothing more than an infomercial stunt. D1 schools have 20+ kids and 12 scholarships. “But my kid is a pitcher and they get the full rides”. Try again. D1’s carry 4+ pitchers and are using staff’s instead of an ace. Do you think they’re tying up 1/3 of their scholarship money in one position? The other dead giveaway is a good coach prepares kids for the right college and doesn’t focus on D1. It’s mind-blowing how you write as if D1 is the utopia of softball and then you list a bunch of crappy conferences to play in. A school is on the top 100’s? Whoop de do. Some of those schools would get routed by the better D2 and schools.

It takes good coaching to get your kid to be able to play in college. There’s thousands of them out there though. Any coach who acts like he’s got a monopoly on it or is the only team around with the right contacts is a clown. Push aside the kool aid and run for the hills. Find someone who cares more about your DD than his own resume.

I wish your DD the best of luck and hope she's able to live her dream and not yours.

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You lost me on letting the umpire award a base to someone who said that they were hit by pitch. While it might be possible to argue that, the umpire is in charge and made their decision. That is on the umpire if it is wrong. The rest of your responses demonstrate that you already have your decision. Take your dd off the HS Team. It really is that simple. Tonight tell her she is done. What I never have understood about these threads is when the parent complains, suggest that the coach is borderline or even across the line dangerous and then ask if the parent should remove the player from the team. I just don't get it.

Vicimus, this is my 31st year coaching. I've pretty much seen it all. I also coached TB for a long time, give private lessons, and had a dd who was decent. I am positive that parents have both loved me and hated me. I'd like to think that only a few fit the later category. One thing that is a constant is that the parent and player had better take charge of the recruiting process. Don't count on anyone else. I've been through it and, once posted that entire journey on this site. Also, the D-I dream is fantastic however, it means little unless your dd is at a top school and getting to play. I've know several who went the D-I route and regretted it. So, buyer beware!

The umpire called a strike. THEN, the batter said it grazed her elbow, which is IRRELEVANT according to the rule book (which I double-checked afterwards!), since the umpire ALREADY called it a strike, BUT the umpire awarded the batter 1B, and DD's HS coach said nothing to the umpire!

At the end of the day, DD will make the decision, but she doesn't always make the *right* choices, which is why I had to pull the plug on her playing HS JV field hockey in the fall which conflicted w/ both her club field hockey and softball field hockey workouts and tournaments. Months afterward, she admitted (unsolicited) that it was the right decision. Life-lesson! Then, we told her after this year's indoor field hockey season, she had to choose either field hockey or softball to pursue her D1 dream. Considering that her #1 school is top 5 in field hockey and recruits internationally, while the softball team is usually ranked in the 150+ range, I believe she made the logical choice after doing an honest self-assessment of her current abilities and the amount of work that would be required to make the top tier D1 field hockey roster vs 150+ softball roster.

Yes, if it were up to me or her mother, she wouldn't waste anymore time playing HS softball; however, we will not give her the satisfaction of blaming it on us, so, we present her with facts, and let her make the decision. Only one time--the HS JV field hockey decision--did I exercise our veto authority when she tried to do too much at the same time for an activity which had ZERO bearing on her D1 goal.

As far as DD playing for less than a *top school*, that's your dream--not hers! Her expectations are realistic given where she is physically, and where she needs to be in the next 2-3 years, and that's NOT pitching 70+ mph for Oklahoma. There are dreams and then there are delusions!

Cannonball said:

You lost me on letting the umpire award a base to someone who said that they were hit by pitch. While it might be possible to argue that, the umpire is in charge and made their decision. That is on the umpire if it is wrong. The rest of your responses demonstrate that you already have your decision. Take your dd off the HS Team. It really is that simple. Tonight tell her she is done. What I never have understood about these threads is when the parent complains, suggest that the coach is borderline or even across the line dangerous and then ask if the parent should remove the player from the team. I just don't get it.

Vicimus, this is my 31st year coaching. I've pretty much seen it all. I also coached TB for a long time, give private lessons, and had a dd who was decent. I am positive that parents have both loved me and hated me. I'd like to think that only a few fit the later category. One thing that is a constant is that the parent and player had better take charge of the recruiting process. Don't count on anyone else. I've been through it and, once posted that entire journey on this site. Also, the D-I dream is fantastic however, it means little unless your dd is at a top school and getting to play. I've know several who went the D-I route and regretted it. So, buyer beware!

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vicimus said:

The umpire called a strike. THEN, the batter said it grazed her elbow, which is IRRELEVANT according to the rule book (which I double-checked afterwards!), since the umpire ALREADY called it a strike, BUT the umpire awarded the batter 1B, and DD's HS coach said nothing to the umpire!

At the end of the day, DD will make the decision, but she doesn't always make the *right* choices, which is why I had to pull the plug on her playing HS JV field hockey in the fall which conflicted w/ both her club field hockey and softball field hockey workouts and tournaments. Months afterward, she admitted (unsolicited) that it was the right decision. Life-lesson! Then, we told her after this year's indoor field hockey season, she had to choose either field hockey or softball to pursue her D1 dream. Considering that her #1 school is top 5 in field hockey and recruits internationally, while the softball team is usually ranked in the 150+ range, I believe she made the logical choice after doing an honest self-assessment of her current abilities and the amount of work that would be required to make the top tier D1 field hockey roster vs 150+ softball roster.

Yes, if it were up to me or her mother, she wouldn't waste anymore time playing HS softball; however, we will not give her the satisfaction of blaming it on us, so, we present her with facts, and let her make the decision. Only one time--the HS JV field hockey decision--did I exercise our veto authority when she tried to do too much at the same time for an activity which had ZERO bearing on her D1 goal.

As far as DD playing for less than a *top school*, that's your dream--not hers! Her expectations are realistic given where she is physically, and where she needs to be in the next 2-3 years, and that's NOT pitching 70+ mph for Oklahoma. There are dreams and then there are delusions!

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You lost me with bold above.

. Let's just say she's not putting all her eggs in the *pitching* basket, since she's 5'3.5", but DD's idol is nowGeorgia's Kylie Bass (5'0"). ;-)

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Same.
DD is 5’-2”. Im always looking for players in the WCWS that are 5’-3” or less. Kelly Montalvo, who plays SS in the NPF and used to play for Alabama, is/was 4’-11”! But shes not a pitcher either. Kylie Bass is living proof it can be done. Delaney Gourley was a great pitcher for Florida and she was under 5’-6”. Sue Enquist told DD that the two best pitchers she had at UCLA were under 5’-6”!

So you never know!

vicimus said:

Feel free to reread every response of mine, but you will not find anywhere that I said DD coach promised her anything. He's just the opposite. He's the one that gave her a dose of reality that there are not many D1 pitchers shorter than 5'7", and asked her if she wanted to play D1 or pitch D1? He's the one that set the expectation that she's got a helluva lot of work to do to have a chance at D1, and if she did, it would probably most-likely be due to her bat more than her pitching.

Now, what I'm saying is that at least in our area, DD's club coach has the *most* proven track record of any other club coach around, and given that he (YES HE!) was the one that developed (at least the last 4 years!) the freshman who got a full ride to my DD's #1 D1 school, I'm 1000% sure that *IF* DD follows the same path, it will be due to her club coach and ZERO percent due to her HS coach.

However, DD's HS coach is a clueless offensive idiot who's only credential is that she graduate from DD's school many years ago. What coach tells a hitter who goes 5 for 5 two games in a row with the lion share of RBIs that, "you don't have to hit a HR at every at bat." Same HS coach that tells another girl that, "Her pitching is sh!t!" And, her clean up hitter that she's "too fat and too slow!" Very constructive considering between her and my DD, that's 90% of her offense! Same HS coach that has my DD intentionally walk the #3 hitter to put the tying run on 1B in the 7th to pitch to the clean up hitter! Thankfully, DD got out of that one! Same HS coach that let the umpire give the batter 1B even though he called a strike but the batter said it touched her elbow! Obviously, a HS coach that hasn't read the rule book!

As far as *crappy* conferences, like I said, DD's #1 selection criteria is computer science, which is why her #1 choice is #14 in the nation for computer science, and many other schools in these conferences have excellent computer science programs even though only a couple of them made the top 50 softball teams. So, if she plays softball for *ANY* D1 school with a decent computer science program and graduates with a $80k+ job, then *MISSION ACCOMPLISHED*!

And, let me assure you it's *HER* dream--not mine, since if it was up to me she would be playing lacrosse! ;-)

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“What coach tells a hitter who goes 5 for 5 two games in a row with the lion share of RBIs that, "you don't have to hit a HR at every at bat."
-A smart one. You said yourself is B level HS. Swinging for the fences every pitch in D1 will just lead to a lot of K’s

Same HS coach that tells another girl that, "Her pitching is sh!t!"
-Class B HS chances are it is shirt. I’d assume she didn’t use those actual words or you wouldn’t even consider letting your DD play for her.

“And, her clean up hitter that she's "too fat and too slow!" “
-Again, class B HS it’s probably true. Clean up hitters in general aren’t known for their quickness. The small class schools are even more of the models that you take what you can get. Also again I’ll assume she didn’t use those exact words or you’d need your head examined to let your DD play for somebody that abusive.

“Same HS coach that has my DD intentionally walk the #3 hitter to put the tying run on 1B in the 7th to pitch to the clean up hitter!”
-Don’t know the full situation if there were runners on or how many outs so hard to say. Lots of situations I’d be more afraid of the #3 than cleanup. Besides that it worked. If TB coach tries something unconventional and it works he’s a genius.


Listen to Cannonball about taking control of the recruiting process yourself. You’d be surprised how little some TB coaches actually had to do with getting a kid to college. After freshman year DD was still 18U eligible so she played a few tourneys with a local team. I saw a post over the winter of all the kids playing in college that played for this particular org. They never said they got her there, but the implication of course is play for us and you can play in college too”.

Also FWIW people would assume it was DD’s TB coach at the time helped get her noticed. Other than pass messages back and forth she had very little to do with it.

I know I’m coming off snarky, but I truly wish your DD the best. This guy might be the golden ticket. Just have a back up plan if he’s not. Plenty of smooth talking coaches will just tell parents what they want to hear. Based on what you’ve said I see all kinds of red flags with this guy. If he’s the best coach in the area, look at a bigger area so you have something to compare him too. If D1 is the goal it’s not uncommon for kids to play for teams hundreds of miles from home.

Perhaps I misinterpreted your "D-I dream is fantastic however, it means little unless your dd is at a top school", but I took it to mean that DD's dream was a waste of time based unless it was a D1 program.

My point being that DD's dream is to play D1 softball for *ANY* school that satisfies her #1 criteria which is an excellent computer science program--NOT a *TOP* D1 softball program which is YOUR criteria.

Given that she would be the 1st D1 athlete in our family (and only the 2nd college graduate other than me), achieving her dream would mean a helluva lot as far as we are all concerned.

Cannonball said:

You lost me with bold above.

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DD doesn't swing for the fences, and Ks very few times (1 out of ~15 ABs). And, HS coach's comment made ZERO sense, since it was said after the 2nd back-to-back 5-for-5 game where DD had 2 triples, 2 doubles, and 6 singles and ~ 12 RBIs in those 2 games.

And, yes, those words were HS coach's EXACT words as reported by one of the other players to DD and one of the other player's mother to my wife. Apparently, she's also dropped several f-bombs, s-bombs, and other obscenities this year to the girls while giving very few compliments. She even told them on several occasions, that she didn't give a damn, since she wasn't going to be back next year, but apparently, after the first winning season in 6 years and making it to the semi-finals, now she apparently said maybe she'll be back p/t next year.

Then, DD tells us just the other day after the end of season team dinner that one of the upperclassmen told DD that apparently DD was the butt of an *inside joke* given by HS coach to the varsity team last year at the end of last season, when DD MS coach introduced her to the HS coach and varsity team; basically, DD MS coach had been raving about DD's pitching for 3 years, so HS coach wanted to see DD pitch batting practice to the varsity team. Apparently, afterwards HS coach gave DD a nickname to the varsity team of a well known tv cartoon character, which I hate to say, but could only be based upon the color of her skin, since she doesn't share any other trait. Needless to say, that was icing on the cake! It's one thing to be called a name by another girl, but for an adult--let alone a coach to say such a thing speaks volumes about her character let alone her coaching abilities! Fingers-crossed that she decides not to come back next year, but if she does I plan to address her behavior to the athletic director.

As far as the game situation below, it was the 6th inning of the quarterfinal playoff game against a higher seed team that beat DD's team in the regular season 9-3 (before DD was given the opportunity to pitch); DD's team led 4-2 with a runner on 1st and 2 outs. Yes, the #3 hitter hit a triple earlier off DD, but DD also had K'd her after that. Can't remember specifically what the #4 hitter had done earlier against DD, but it wasn't a triple. So, if HS coach had shown *any* genius at any time earlier in the season, I would give her credit, but I don't think any other *genius* coach at any level would have made that decision. That was the only intentional walk she had called all season and the only walk by DD all game. And, given the errors DD's team had committed, it was an extremely risky call afaic.

And, don't worry, my like her education, we take ownership of DD's athletic development and recruiting process too, which is why this is DD's 4th (and FINAL!) team in 4 years. ;-)

As far as bigger area, an hour away 4 days per week on top of weekly pitching coach session 2 hours away is plenty on top of 5 days per week for HS ball, if she's to get back to straight As which is DD's top priority.

Thanks again for your feedback though.

MNDad said:

“What coach tells a hitter who goes 5 for 5 two games in a row with the lion share of RBIs that, "you don't have to hit a HR at every at bat."
-A smart one. You said yourself is B level HS. Swinging for the fences every pitch in D1 will just lead to a lot of K’s


Same HS coach that tells another girl that, "Her pitching is sh!t!"
-Class B HS chances are it is shirt. I’d assume she didn’t use those actual words or you wouldn’t even consider letting your DD play for her.

“And, her clean up hitter that she's "too fat and too slow!" “
-Again, class B HS it’s probably true. Clean up hitters in general aren’t known for their quickness. The small class schools are even more of the models that you take what you can get. Also again I’ll assume she didn’t use those exact words or you’d need your head examined to let your DD play for somebody that abusive.

“Same HS coach that has my DD intentionally walk the #3 hitter to put the tying run on 1B in the 7th to pitch to the clean up hitter!”
-Don’t know the full situation if there were runners on or how many outs so hard to say. Lots of situations I’d be more afraid of the #3 than cleanup. Besides that it worked. If TB coach tries something unconventional and it works he’s a genius.


Listen to Cannonball about taking control of the recruiting process yourself. You’d be surprised he little some TB coaches actually had to do with getting a kid to college. After freshman year DD was still 18U eligible so she played a few tourneys with a local team. I saw a post over the winter of all the kids playing in college that played for this particular org. They never said they got her there, but the implication of course is play for us and you can play in college too”.

Also FWIW people would assume it was DD’s TB coach at the time helped get her noticed. Other than pass messages back and forth she had very little to do with it.

I know I’m coming off snarky, but I truly wish your DD the best. This guy might be the golden ticket. Just have a back up plan if he’s not. Plenty of smooth talking coaches will just tell parents what they want to hear. Based on what you’ve said I see all kinds of red flags with this guy. If he’s the best coach in the area, look at a bigger area so you have something to compare him too. If D1 is the goal it’s not uncommon for kids to play for teams hundreds of miles from home.

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