Actually we're all still trying to figure out who skeptic is. If you knew the past history of all this nonsense and the steady attacks you could understand the reaction you just got caught in the middle of. Likely you would enjoy the conversation.
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Actually we're all still trying to figure out who skeptic is. If you knew the past history of all this nonsense and the steady attacks you could understand the reaction you just got caught in the middle of. Likely you would enjoy the conversation.
Wait a second...isn't HI.com's Richard's website, aka "JoeBad" and a host of other aliases that have been banned from every message board around, and you're complaining about "nastiness"?
Or am I confused about it being Richard's website? If so, I apologize
No, you are not confused though one needs a program with all of Richard's screen names to figure out the players. Somehow he seems to be able to enlist the willing and the naive to carry out his attacks in proxy even though he is banned from every website I'm aware of except eteamz. Does eteamz really count as an active website anymore?
jofus-
You and skeptic and board member and most others are late to the party on this "nasty behavior" thing.
The first one to exhibit nasty behavior was Nyman. Nyman and I had a fairly amicable (for Nyman) parting over our conflicting interpretations of torque in his simulations,especially:
as later recollected by Nyman who can run his own site however he wants:
Baseball Fever - View Single Post - Function of the Hands in MLB Swings
Nyman: "My philosophy with the SETPRO/hitting-mechanics.org websites was the former i.e. I was looking to give specific solutions that were consistent with my understanding of the swing process. And I would not tolerate for any length of time, the key words here "length of time", as in Tom Guerry type litanies on the relevance of top hand torque in the kinetics of the baseball swing when in fact he had no clue as to what kinetics of the compound pendulum ( kinetic sequence) process was/is about. In other words I was very intolerant of what I considered unsubstantiated or unsupported opinions where repetition was/is used as a substitute for fact.
"And rather than waste my time trying to "convert" an existing belief system it was more productive for me to simply eliminate what I considered "noise".
============
However, soon after this, Nyman went on to cross the line in my opinion dishonestly disparaging Jack Mankin, misrepresenting his work and contacting and intimidating one of Jack's university professor references.
That behavior plus the fact that Nyman's interpretations are not representative or compatible with the MLB swing lead to my ongoing active opposition to Nyman.
The nastiness escalated with Englishbey and his posse joining in, and at that time, Richard/joebad was in their camp and welcomed by them as a "blunt instrument".
They do not like Richard now that he has realized that they are wrong and is on the other side. Richard's behavior is no different now and in both situations he was and is primarily a truth seeker unlike others who advertise themselves as such.
Steve Englishbey is far nastier than anyone else excepting perhaps Richard. You can ask Mike Kennedy about the lengths Steve went to being rude and disrepectful to Mike. Many many people can send you the nasty PM's and e-mails they have gotten from Steve when he felt betrayed by them.
This is all pretty classic cult behavior you are observing and getting drawn into with lots of groupthink and power dynamics that take a fuller history of the play and the players to understand.
I would highly recommend you contribute by staying out of the nastiness and stick to content here where Marc D. has made such a nice place available.
You and skeptic and board member and most others are late to the party on this "nasty behavior" thing.
The first one to exhibit nasty behavior was Nyman. Nyman and I had a fairly amicable (for Nyman) parting over our conflicting interpretations of torque in his simulations,especially:
as later recollected by Nyman who can run his own site however he wants:
Baseball Fever - View Single Post - Function of the Hands in MLB Swings
Nyman: "My philosophy with the SETPRO/hitting-mechanics.org websites was the former i.e. I was looking to give specific solutions that were consistent with my understanding of the swing process. And I would not tolerate for any length of time, the key words here "length of time", as in Tom Guerry type litanies on the relevance of top hand torque in the kinetics of the baseball swing when in fact he had no clue as to what kinetics of the compound pendulum ( kinetic sequence) process was/is about. In other words I was very intolerant of what I considered unsubstantiated or unsupported opinions where repetition was/is used as a substitute for fact.
"And rather than waste my time trying to "convert" an existing belief system it was more productive for me to simply eliminate what I considered "noise".
============
However, soon after this, Nyman went on to cross the line in my opinion dishonestly disparaging Jack Mankin, misrepresenting his work and contacting and intimidating one of Jack's university professor references.
That behavior plus the fact that Nyman's interpretations are not representative or compatible with the MLB swing lead to my ongoing active opposition to Nyman.
The nastiness escalated with Englishbey and his posse joining in, and at that time, Richard/joebad was in their camp and welcomed by them as a "blunt instrument".
They do not like Richard now that he has realized that they are wrong and is on the other side. Richard's behavior is no different now and in both situations he was and is primarily a truth seeker unlike others who advertise themselves as such.
Steve Englishbey is far nastier than anyone else excepting perhaps Richard. You can ask Mike Kennedy about the lengths Steve went to being rude and disrepectful to Mike. Many many people can send you the nasty PM's and e-mails they have gotten from Steve when he felt betrayed by them.
This is all pretty classic cult behavior you are observing and getting drawn into with lots of groupthink and power dynamics that take a fuller history of the play and the players to understand.
I would highly recommend you contribute by staying out of the nastiness and stick to content here where Marc D. has made such a nice place available.
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Well -
That was a very insightful (?inciteful) post.
Williams/Epstein is the system I prefer. I think the drills Epstein has developed practically/empirically are very efective even if he is unable to describe them entirely scientifically/accurately/objectively (which is not entirely possible). I do think the most difficult thing to understand may be the lower body/stride to balance then rotate with drop and tilt to prevent lunging with feel of rotating over inside of back thigh. I do think this is a good drill consistent with the ML pattern, but it is hard to apply/teach unless you have experience with the MLB swing pattern.
I prefer this approach to the Slaught/candrea descripiton of rotation around the front hip because this forces a long 2 piece slot then swing type action with loss of early batspeed.
Trying to rotate around the front hip/leg encourages you to delay swing/rotation until front heel gets down which is too late and does not fit with/prevents keeping hands back/getting flat well behind the hitter for early batspeed.
I think getting the swing going early with getting hands flat is one end of being able to develop a good matching contact zone. At the other end, it is important to get the type of release as described by Willams as top hand wrist sill unbroken at contact or "palm up extension" of the top hand.
That was a very insightful (?inciteful) post.
Williams/Epstein is the system I prefer. I think the drills Epstein has developed practically/empirically are very efective even if he is unable to describe them entirely scientifically/accurately/objectively (which is not entirely possible). I do think the most difficult thing to understand may be the lower body/stride to balance then rotate with drop and tilt to prevent lunging with feel of rotating over inside of back thigh. I do think this is a good drill consistent with the ML pattern, but it is hard to apply/teach unless you have experience with the MLB swing pattern.
I prefer this approach to the Slaught/candrea descripiton of rotation around the front hip because this forces a long 2 piece slot then swing type action with loss of early batspeed.
Trying to rotate around the front hip/leg encourages you to delay swing/rotation until front heel gets down which is too late and does not fit with/prevents keeping hands back/getting flat well behind the hitter for early batspeed.
I think getting the swing going early with getting hands flat is one end of being able to develop a good matching contact zone. At the other end, it is important to get the type of release as described by Willams as top hand wrist sill unbroken at contact or "palm up extension" of the top hand.
Nyman can be a horse's patoot. That much is true even by his own self admission. The rest of the post is pretty much self serving spin not worth breaking down. I leave it at the minimum for setting the record straight in order to keep it mellow on Marc's site.
This response from you gets old.
This is NOT ad hominem. As I have stated, whether or not you work with hitters to test your theories is very important to me in determining your credibility. And I am certain it is important to many others. Perhaps there are others who don't care; I do. If you don't want to answer (again), fine. But it is NOT unfair to ask, and it isn't an attack. Merely an attempt to determine credibility.
You attempting to stake the moral high ground by insinuating it is an insult to even ask you is ludicrous. The question is HIGHLY relevant.
As I understand your response, you have worked with hitters PERSONALLY in the past. When? What level? How many? How long?
And you currently analyze video for other coaches?
Useful, depending on the analysis. Entirely different than working personally with hitters, though, and I hope that you would agree with that?
As for ego, I have a healthy one, and am proud of my accomplishments in the sport. However, I am ENTIRELY open to learning from others. But feel there is far too much at stake to do so blindly. No credentials, no interest. And for me, the most important aspect of the credentialing process is the experience of the individual in developing hitters hands-on. I suspect - and HOPE - others feel the same way. Perhaps not, but IMO, they should.
I agree that "drop and tilt" probably isn't the best way to describe the process. But if the #1 and #2 positions of the "Numbers Drill" are taught correctly then everything falls into place. Sometimes Epstein's material doesn't put enough emphasize on certain requirements in his drills. The requirements are mentioned, but sometimes you have to watch the dvd 20 times before it sinks in.
For instance, you are correct when you say that he teaches body/stride to balance. But then he goes on to say that he teaches his students to get a little more weight forward on the front foot in the #1 position to ensure that the backside doesn't collapse. It's the difference between the 'written word on paper' and the reality of getting a student to perform the 'written word' in the real world.
Then comes the #2 position which up until recently I had difficulty communicating to younger players. A cue that seems to work is to tell the student to push against their big toe of their back foot as their rear hip triggers. IMO this cue gives the student the correct feel of the rear hip driving into the pitch and setting up the whip effect that I see ML hitters doing. I'm probably not explaining it correctly, but what you get is the rear heel completely off the ground and all backside weight is pushing against the big toe while simultaneously being resisted by the stiff front leg. It totally averts sit and spin and sets the body up in a very strong 'hips lead hands' position.
I've spent many hours working his drills myself and can 'feel' firsthand what I believe needs to be taught to get close to matching the ML swing. My model is TW as I believe many of the current ML players have been able to get by on less than ideal mechanics because of steroids.
I don't see the relevance. How does what I believe have any bearing whatsoever on your conversation with Englishbey, or anyone else?
I spoke to him once, and found him engaging and agreeable. We differed in some areas, but had a lot of common ground too. I found the conversation useful. I imagine you would too.
For that matter, you ought to speak w/ Epstein, and any of the other guys who demonstrate value to you. To not do so (when it is easy to do and they are all available) is missing a huge opportunity.
What!? I don't know what bit you in the a**, but I was seriously asking an honest question. You once said you are involved in the sport, so I am just interested in knowing more of your coaching background. I'm a HS coach, so naturally I am wondering what you do. That's all.
A friend of mine, who was formerly one of the best men's fastpitch pitchers in the USA, just replaced me at the HS I used to coach at. He knows many of the USA Women players, as well as Candrea and D'Arcy. Are you connected with them in any way?
Mike
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