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May 12, 2008
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However, 90 degree L blueprint, or as Ursa calls it, "a braced position" at contact, WILL stiffle the release phase of the swing, and the kinetic chain that transfers momentum to the bathead........As well as the concept of being long through the hitting zone..........

The only way to reach extension from that braced position is to "push" the fulcrum forward.........

That position should be a spot you move through during whip not a position you hold. No "bracing" or "resisting" at contact makes any difference if the experts who tell us the shock wave from bat ball contact only reaches the hands well after the ball has left the bat.
 
May 12, 2008
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Mark hits the nail squarely on the head, that is, what Tom talks about is seen in the ML hitter, IMO. I do read Tom's stuff- have for years -and you do have to read and understand. I know he gets into great detail about the swing, but for me it works. He fleshes out the small detail - detail that matters. He then points people to portions of various hitting instructor's material that meshes with his view. This make sense too, because no know seems to have all the answers. And now, Tom's view of hitting is shared by the Hitting Illustrated web site.

The alternate view as Mark points out is, unless you have a DVD, give lessons and feedback, then you have no credibility - "So there you go." But wait, Epstein and Mankin have DVD's, give lessons, and feedback....but they fail miserably in developing the ML swing in young hitters - at least according to Mark.

Skeptic - Respectfully speaking, I disagree with your assessment of the brain power of people reading Tom's stuff. I don't talk to kid's I work with using Tom's detailed explanations. I love the teaching part of coaching, and Tom's material does help me improve as a teacher. I'm more knowledgeble because of it and therefore can do a better job of conveying to hitters what I'm after. I've coached HS and younger kids for the past 26 years, more than that considering my daughter.

Mike

Actually my position is Tom comes to his conclusions partially because he doesn't actually teach and I think he's one of the more dangerous independents out there in terms of youth swing development. BUT, to be true to my saying that everyone must decide for themselves based on what they see elite hitters doing, I refer you to my previous post-if Tom's stuff makes sense to you and compares well to what YOU see in elite hitters, then you absolutely should follow him. Good luck.
 
Jan 14, 2009
1,591
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Atlanta, Georgia
Original posted by Mark H:
That position should be a spot you move through during whip not a position you hold.

My experience is that the bent elbow position is virtually impossible to hold at contact, with the possible exception of an inside pitch that jams the hitter.

As an experiment, I just watched myself in the mirror doing one of our drills, and the back elbow naturally begins to unhinge into contact. Even when I try to keep it perfectly bent at 90 degrees while performing my swing in slow motion, my body doesn't want to hold that position.

This leads me to believe that the unhinging of the back elbow into contact is something that naturally occurs and is virtually impossible to do incorrectly if the beginning of the swing is performed correctly.

Based on my mirror test (I know not very scientific) and experience teaching my daughter, I don't see any benefit in mentioning the back elbow extension to a student.

IMO it's more important to focus on keeping the hitter together leading up to the point of contact, or more precisely, up to the point where their instincts take over.
 
Jul 14, 2008
1,800
63
One thing we always work on is the extension of the arms through contact into the power "V". I'm always looking to make sure my daughter does not prematurely wrap the bat around her upper torso or waist.

Excellent.......

I see a lot of girls at this age who are prone to finishing their swing just above their waist. Drives me nuts.

Angular plane methodology should be a prerequisite to teaching......

All right, so If I understand you correctly, to much emphasis on maintaining the box could lead to an issue with extension through contact.

That's all I'm sayin! This kid isn't maintaining the box into contact.........She Whips the bat off her shoulders and ALLOWS angular acceleration to move THROUGH the ball, releasing the hands AND the bottom arm......

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Sounds like your doing fine job with your kids.......

I wouldn't TEACH rear arm extension either. It just happens......But I also wouldn't insist on the L at contact..........Because IMO, it promotes a left turn in order to commit to finish.......
 
May 12, 2008
2,214
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This leads me to believe that the unhinging of the back elbow into contact is something that naturally occurs and is virtually impossible to do incorrectly if the beginning of the swing is performed correctly.
.

Yes. The further into a swing inefficiencies happen, the less important they are.
 
May 12, 2008
2,214
0
Board,

Looking at her frame by frame I'd say from heel plant to lag the arms, shoulders and bat maintain roughly the same geometry. What do you see during those frames?
 
May 27, 2008
106
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Indiana
Yes, Mark, good luck, good luck, I know. That Tom is one of the most dangerous independents in terms of swing development is, well, laughable.

John,

The left turn you speak of I see in a lot of kids. Benji shows great upper body mechanics in the clip. What I particularly like is her using her hands and arms to quickly get the hands flat and into the swing path. The elbows quickly change positions with the top elbow working up to allow the hands to get into the palm up/palm down position. And I see a lot of top hand/arm emphasis in her swing to create the whip from the get-go.

I particularly like and use the "hit the inside seam" tee drill that Donny Buster use to talk frequently about. Really promotes finishing through the ball up the middle and oppo. Just worked on this with some players at the new HS I'm now coaching at.

Mike
 
Jul 14, 2008
1,800
63
Board,

Looking at her frame by frame I'd say from heel plant to lag the arms, shoulders and bat maintain roughly the same geometry. What do you see during those frames?

Yep. Maintian the box from launch to lag. That's been my method.....

Without going into a bunch of scientific pontification, there is a reason this should be achieved.

Understanding the we are using angular acceleration to impart the highest eventual directional force of the collision, there IS a point at which the hands MUST "jump off" the centerpidal forces to change the vector of angular momentum.

If we think about how important it is to adjust to the location of the impending collision, yet still impart the MOST momentum into the collsion, we can understand the reason for the shape of the track ball or "Jai-Alai" racket.

imagegen


The ball starts at the inner most position of the racket. As the racket is "whipped", the ball eventually leaves the internal curvature, towards a new vector.

The angular acceleration of the physics of the "confined curve" eventually accelerates the force directionally.

When we hit, we hold the hands at the inner most part if the curve. But eventually, we need to direct that force toward the impending collsion.

So we USE angular momentum, and angular acceleration in the most efficient manner to impart that force directionally toward the collision........

There is a reason why virtuall ALL good swings show extension of the bottom arm into contact.........
 

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