Hitting Questions?

[SBFAMILY]

Wellphyt. I work with young girls and I use Don's hammer drill with them to teach what you have mentioned with the inside out adjustment..

 

[Wellphyt]

I like the concept of Don's Hammer Drill and I have been considering trying it. I'm just really paranoid about introducing anything involving the arms into hitting instruction.

What I really want to do is introduce the girls to pinball so they can better grasp the concept of letting the ball get deep on outside pitches and making contact sooner on inside pitches. Maybe it's time to buy a portable pinball machine to take to tournaments. Give them something fun to do between games.

 

[skeptic]

read all the way through Tom's stuff, understand it, think it makes sense compared to what you see MLB hitter's doing and think it makes sense from a youth development stand point

That's my point. I don't think 1 in 20 hitting coaches would understand this. Not 1 in 500 parents. Not ONE kid.

With regard to what you see, much of Nyman's model is good with the limitations I have mentioned. In addition, Nyman's idea of TILT is wrong and he does not understand how in vs out adjustment is made. Epstein has the best description of TILT as it relates to up/down and fast/slow adjustment. TILT is best assessed from the open view of the hitter as how much their "posture" is leaned back or toward the pitcher. Note this is how Candrea/Enquist also analyze "posture". Nyman's method is much more based on bend at waist as looked at from the pitcher's view which misses the whole point of "early batspeed" and late adjustment.


Mankin's work is best at explaining how in/out swing radius is adjusted.


A good thing about Nyman's model is describing how the swing is most easily/simply thought of as a double pendulum which is the simplest form of whip.

The key to a good whip/release is to fire the bathead (bat is second/peripheral pendulum) out with active handle torquing beginning just BEFORE the torso (torso and connected lead arm are first/central pendulum) turns with maximum momentum which is when torso turn gets to maximum "angular velocity".

The wrists are the hinge that connect the two pendula, and in the case of human hitters, this is an active connection where torquing force can be applied to the handle to control the timing of the swing which is what Mankin explains as the torque component of the swig that blends with the whip/pendulum portion which he calls CHP (circular handpath) or "flail" (2-piece whip). Mankins' model is "CHP and TORQUE".

The shoulders/scaps are used primarily to assist the arms and hands in torquing the handle which lets the upper body control the timing and synch of the torso coil and firing of the bathead together with the hands staying well back so there is quick acceleration well behind the batter which enables maximum read time of pitch location and best/latest opportunity to adjust swing for a solid collision.

So when Pujols TILTS the shoulders to boost the torquing of the bat handle that is already underway, this lets the upper body resist turning open as the hips fire at the same time. This keeps the hands back and turns the bat between them. SInce the hips are turning the body quickly in a more level plane than the steeper plane the bat turns in, the result is a quick last additional stretch/coil/load of the torso between the hips and shoulders. This type of torso load ending with a last quick adjustable stretch (adjusts timing and direction of whip) permits the quickest possible bathead acceleration which also requires a running start of the turning of the bathead so inertia from accelerating the bat does not force drag.

The body is able to coordinate all this stuff - timing and direction of torso lever, timing of bat lever - by having the hands as the single locus of control in torquing the handle.

SO this is what to look for in PUjols.

The back arm has to stay in/angle stay in back elbow for torso to reach maximum momentum/turning velocity, but at the same time the bathead is being turned between the hands to overcome inertia and provide control of developing swing plane.

Then the bathead is firing out to trigger the self feeding acceleration of the bathead as the last quick coil/stretch/cusp/x-factor stretch of the torso ends. This is when the back forearm starts to lower and the back elbow angle starts to widen.

For self feeding explanation, again, see:

best of max page 0

Then there is palmup extension of the back arm to contact with unhinging of the lead wrist for a couple of frames before contact, BUT the top hand wrist still dorsiflexed or as Williams said "unbroken".

In the extension sequence/release for longer radius swings like more outside and/or low, there will be more extension before contact, both in the back and front elbow. Once the lead wrist has started to unhinge, it is then (in sequence) OK for the angle to start widening at the lead elbow for these longer radius swings. As the swing gets even longer, it is OK for the lead forearm to supinate which is what starts the wrists rolling. This is all OK (supports quick acceleration to contact without deceleration which would ruin timing) as long as the lead upper arm stays internally rotated in the lead shoulder socket and the back arm stays palmup without getting fully straight. In this case the lead wrist does get "uncocked at contact" - extends and ADducts. In this case, it helps to think of trying to keep the palm up because lead forearm pronation will start to turn the palm over just before you run out of range of motion for extension causing deceleration.

So it's a good idea to get familiar with this extension sequence yourself and it helps to look at many videos of the same player hitting different pitches to see how it can be done.

From a backward chaining perpsective, it pays to understand this extension sequence and how it connects to/with the loading/unloading of the body (body torque as Epstein calls it with his torque drill with bat on deltoid being an excellent introduction to the feel of the MLB pattern

 

[BoardMember]

I believe when teaching you have to have a standard or blueprint to begin with. I believe the standard is a slotted rear elbow bent at 90 degrees at contact or very close to contact. From there the hitter makes instinctive adjustments with their arms and body posture.

As Don Slaught mentions in the following video clip, the body is designed to work from the inside out. Which is what I have observed with my DD and others.

YouTube - Baseball Hitting Instruction by Don Slaught - Adjusting from Inside Pitches to Outside Pitches

I'll reitterate that I agree with your blueprint for young hitters may be appropriate depending on maturity........And there's no doubt that "look in, adjust out" is the best plan......

However, 90 degree L blueprint, or as Ursa calls it, "a braced position" at contact, WILL stiffle the release phase of the swing, and the kinetic chain that transfers momentum to the bathead........As well as the concept of being long through the hitting zone..........

The only way to reach extension from that braced position is to "push" the fulcrum forward.........

Which is completely different then whipping the release from the rear shoulder, and throwing the top hand past the bottom........

 

[Wellphyt]

a braced position" at contact, WILL stiffle the release phase of the swing, and the kinetic chain that transfers momentum to the bathead........

One thing we always work on is the extension of the arms through contact into the power "V". I'm always looking to make sure my daughter does not prematurely wrap the bat around her upper torso or waist.

I see a lot of girls at this age who are prone to finishing their swing just above their waist. Drives me nuts.

All right, so If I understand you correctly, to much emphasis on maintaining the box could lead to an issue with extension through contact.

Got it. I'll keep an eye on it.

 

[Slapper23]

if you (the general you, this certainly isn't addressed to Boardmember who has successful students) can read all the way through Tom's stuff, understand it, think it makes sense compared to what you see MLB hitter's doing and think it makes sense from a youth development stand point, then by all means, you should do it Tom's way. He doesn't have a dvd and he won't schedule lessons but he will give feedback over the net. So there you go.

Mark hits the nail squarely on the head, that is, what Tom talks about is seen in the ML hitter, IMO. I do read Tom's stuff- have for years -and you do have to read and understand. I know he gets into great detail about the swing, but for me it works. He fleshes out the small detail - detail that matters. He then points people to portions of various hitting instructor's material that meshes with his view. This make sense too, because no know seems to have all the answers. And now, Tom's view of hitting is shared by the Hitting Illustrated web site.

The alternate view as Mark points out is, unless you have a DVD, give lessons and feedback, then you have no credibility - "So there you go." But wait, Epstein and Mankin have DVD's, give lessons, and feedback....but they fail miserably in developing the ML swing in young hitters - at least according to Mark.

Skeptic - Respectfully speaking, I disagree with your assessment of the brain power of people reading Tom's stuff. I don't talk to kid's I work with using Tom's detailed explanations. I love the teaching part of coaching, and Tom's material does help me improve as a teacher. I'm more knowledgeble because of it and therefore can do a better job of conveying to hitters what I'm after. I've coached HS and younger kids for the past 26 years, more than that considering my daughter.

Mike

 

[Mark H]

However, 90 degree L blueprint, or as Ursa calls it, "a braced position" at contact, WILL stiffle the release phase of the swing, and the kinetic chain that transfers momentum to the bathead........As well as the concept of being long through the hitting zone..........

The only way to reach extension from that braced position is to "push" the fulcrum forward.........

That position should be a spot you move through during whip not a position you hold. No "bracing" or "resisting" at contact makes any difference if the experts who tell us the shock wave from bat ball contact only reaches the hands well after the ball has left the bat.

 

[Mark H]

Mark hits the nail squarely on the head, that is, what Tom talks about is seen in the ML hitter, IMO. I do read Tom's stuff- have for years -and you do have to read and understand. I know he gets into great detail about the swing, but for me it works. He fleshes out the small detail - detail that matters. He then points people to portions of various hitting instructor's material that meshes with his view. This make sense too, because no know seems to have all the answers. And now, Tom's view of hitting is shared by the Hitting Illustrated web site.

The alternate view as Mark points out is, unless you have a DVD, give lessons and feedback, then you have no credibility - "So there you go." But wait, Epstein and Mankin have DVD's, give lessons, and feedback....but they fail miserably in developing the ML swing in young hitters - at least according to Mark.

Skeptic - Respectfully speaking, I disagree with your assessment of the brain power of people reading Tom's stuff. I don't talk to kid's I work with using Tom's detailed explanations. I love the teaching part of coaching, and Tom's material does help me improve as a teacher. I'm more knowledgeble because of it and therefore can do a better job of conveying to hitters what I'm after. I've coached HS and younger kids for the past 26 years, more than that considering my daughter.

Mike

Actually my position is Tom comes to his conclusions partially because he doesn't actually teach and I think he's one of the more dangerous independents out there in terms of youth swing development. BUT, to be true to my saying that everyone must decide for themselves based on what they see elite hitters doing, I refer you to my previous post-if Tom's stuff makes sense to you and compares well to what YOU see in elite hitters, then you absolutely should follow him. Good luck.

 

[Wellphyt]

Original posted by Mark H:
That position should be a spot you move through during whip not a position you hold.

My experience is that the bent elbow position is virtually impossible to hold at contact, with the possible exception of an inside pitch that jams the hitter.

As an experiment, I just watched myself in the mirror doing one of our drills, and the back elbow naturally begins to unhinge into contact. Even when I try to keep it perfectly bent at 90 degrees while performing my swing in slow motion, my body doesn't want to hold that position.

This leads me to believe that the unhinging of the back elbow into contact is something that naturally occurs and is virtually impossible to do incorrectly if the beginning of the swing is performed correctly.

Based on my mirror test (I know not very scientific) and experience teaching my daughter, I don't see any benefit in mentioning the back elbow extension to a student.

IMO it's more important to focus on keeping the hitter together leading up to the point of contact, or more precisely, up to the point where their instincts take over.

 

[BoardMember]

One thing we always work on is the extension of the arms through contact into the power "V". I'm always looking to make sure my daughter does not prematurely wrap the bat around her upper torso or waist.

Excellent.......

I see a lot of girls at this age who are prone to finishing their swing just above their waist. Drives me nuts.

Angular plane methodology should be a prerequisite to teaching......

All right, so If I understand you correctly, to much emphasis on maintaining the box could lead to an issue with extension through contact.

That's all I'm sayin! This kid isn't maintaining the box into contact.........She Whips the bat off her shoulders and ALLOWS angular acceleration to move THROUGH the ball, releasing the hands AND the bottom arm......

Sounds like your doing fine job with your kids.......

I wouldn't TEACH rear arm extension either. It just happens......But I also wouldn't insist on the L at contact..........Because IMO, it promotes a left turn in order to commit to finish.......