Bat Path

[Bobby Shirer]

How can a hitter leverage the legs by sitting in a chair? Nobody in this thread is saying the legs don't play a role. So your challenge makes no sense

I didn't ask about leg leverage.
You said the legs provide support. Why can't a chair provide support?
The challenge is to demo the obliques as the power source like a few here have proposed.
"Leverage the obliques off of back of the pelvis".. .is what I think I recall someone saying.
Some one else said, "Reciprocal movement." (might be the same guy, who knows?)

Just an oblique isolation demo....no legs allowed.
Anyone?...
Don't tell me every one of the "obliques" guys backed away from their claims!
Ok then, is anyone gonna step up and admit they were wrong?
more crickets....

 

[julray]

I didn't ask about leg leverage.
You said the legs provide support. Why can't a chair provide support?
The challenge is to demo the obliques as the power source like a few here have proposed.
"Leverage the obliques off of back of the pelvis".. .is what I think I recall someone saying.
Some one else said, "Reciprocal movement." (might be the same guy, who knows?)

Just an oblique isolation demo....no legs allowed.
Anyone?...
Don't tell me every one of the "obliques" guys backed away from their claims!
Ok then, is anyone gonna step up and admit they were wrong?
more crickets....

Got the wrong guy.. I've said the legs are involved in the swing, they are not dead, they provide leverage, support, power etc.. But even so, let's say some say the legs just support(and I am for certain you took that out of context) you believe a chair provides the same level of support as a persons legs?

 

[Mudders Brudder]

I would say that that IS hip extension. The umph is hip extension. The femurs(not necessarily the whole leg!) and pelvis are being made into a line really fast. The really noteworthy thing is that the torso is attached to the pelvis as its being snapped around by the glutes/hamstrings. So it acts like a lever. It gets swung/catapulted as the hips move into extension. Because of this I think it may be better not to view hip extension as "legs". It's a little bit different than that imo.

In regards to the "legs extend then oomph", yep just like anything else its beneficial to stretch the muscle for greater contractility. The hamstring is stretched by having more hip flexion or by straightening the knee(or some combo of both) this loads them up. Think about the classic hamstring stretch, straight leg, flexed hip.

The pesky weightlifter does this during his lift(the clean). He straightens his knees and keeps his but back(hip flexion) to load his hammies. Then the umph happens when the bar gets pretty high up his thigh, a few inches from his pubic bone. His pelvis comes forward, torso ends up going back/up. The umph is hip extension.
View attachment 18064


You can see the torso "pulse" rearward in the griffey gif a little bit I think.


Anyways, thats what I think.

That’s excellent, I think we’re making real progress here, because I believe you’re starting to see the distinction in terms that I was trying to make between the difference in what you were calling “hip extension” and doing in the exercise when you were attempting it, and what I was saying it was, and thus doing and trying to explain differently wrt the exercise.

To summarize, you were using “hip extension” to move yourself forward, while I was using “hip extension” to “open” the joint itself. This is a big difference in definitions, but also very necessary to understand why we view what’s happening in Freddie’s swing differently terminology wise…although I believe we’re both seeing/analyzing it the same which is excellent for the conversation.

In order to try to keep this as brief as possible, I’m gonna try to cut out as much of the minutia details as possible, and just propose my different definitions of what I’m calling what the rear leg does in moving the hitter from “linear to rotational” if you remember my several posts wrt that concept another buddy of mine came up with.

What you’re still calling the move out (stride) as “hip extension”, I’m saying that’s simply the hitter using “leg extension” (or "abduction" more correctly) to move himself forward…a lateral leg raise exercise only from a standing position if you will. This is a “linear” move of the rear leg moving the PG forward with little to no “rotational” value in it as of yet. Going one step further, what happens if/when the hitter puts some rearward coil “around” that forward moving leg with the PG? Would that linear rear “leg extension” (abduction) then actually have some rear “hip flexion” in it…or would you still just call that whole move forward “hip extension” as you did in the exercise, and are doing now?

Once the hitter moves out laterally to his “FYB” position, this is where I believe the actual “RHE” starts the “rotational” usage of the rear leg (ER) to launch the swing (yes, along with the contracting obliques for the others reading along).

When the femoral head reaches its full ROM within the acetabulum, is when you see that final little “thrust” or “umph” of the rear hip -slightly up and forward - when the rear leg and/or body don’t have any additional forward movement…as the hitter has already gone from the “linear" (leg extension/abduction) move to the "rotational" (hip extension) movement at this point in the swing....and two distinct differences in terminology (at least IMO anyway).

I have no idea what a “torso pulse” is, and as such won’t take up anymore of your time trying to reply to it one way or the other.

So that’s what I think wrt all of it. Similar, but definitely with some distinct (and important) differences as well IMO.

 

[DRDRODD]

I didn't ask about leg leverage.
You said the legs provide support. Why can't a chair provide support?
The challenge is to demo the obliques as the power source like a few here have proposed.
"Leverage the obliques off of back of the pelvis".. .is what I think I recall someone saying.
Some one else said, "Reciprocal movement." (might be the same guy, who knows?)

Just an oblique isolation demo....no legs allowed.
Anyone?...
Don't tell me every one of the "obliques" guys backed away from their claims!
Ok then, is anyone gonna step up and admit they were wrong?
more crickets....

Can the legs be hooked into the chair? So wrapped around the legs anchored if you will? My DD wants to try it lol.


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[Bobby Shirer]

Can the legs be hooked into the chair? So wrapped around the legs anchored if you will? My DD wants to try it lol.


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NO LEGS.
Seatbelts are allowed. Legs together off floor.
Not able to leverage the legs.
This needs to be a highly controlled experiment.
Otherwise the results could be misleading.

 

[DRDRODD]

NO LEGS.
Seatbelts are allowed. Legs together off floor.
Not able to leverage the legs.
This needs to be a highly controlled experiment.
Otherwise the results could be misleading.

How do you believe the legs are the main power source of the swing? You probably wrote about it before and I just missed it, so can you explain it to me.


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[Shawn]

I didn't ask about leg leverage.
You said the legs provide support. Why can't a chair provide support?
The challenge is to demo the obliques as the power source like a few here have proposed.
"Leverage the obliques off of back of the pelvis".. .is what I think I recall someone saying.
Some one else said, "Reciprocal movement." (might be the same guy, who knows?)

Just an oblique isolation demo....no legs allowed.
Anyone?...
Don't tell me every one of the "obliques" guys backed away from their claims!
Ok then, is anyone gonna step up and admit they were wrong?
more crickets....

I’m sitting in a captain chair on my deck while reading. Picked my feet up and tried to turn with the obliques. Swinging with just my hands/upperbody. The equal and opposite forces between the elevated lower body and the torso is strong. The forces just cancel each other out and nothing moves.

 

[DRDRODD]

I’m sitting in a captain chair on my deck while reading. Picked my feet up and tried to turn with the obliques. Swinging with just my hands/upperbody. The equal and opposite forces between the elevated lower body and the torso is strong. The forces just cancel each other out and nothing moves.

Reciprocal Movement...... If there were GFR you would have rotated. I believe that some may think, that some do not believe that is the case......


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[Bobby Shirer]

How do you believe the legs are the main power source of the swing? You probably wrote about it before and I just missed it, so can you explain it to me.


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The object is to rotate the pelvis. Force must be applied at the ends of the pelvis to create rotation. Torque.
The rear leg externally rotates to turn the pelvis toward the pitcher using glute medius contraction. There's rear leg abduction too.
Rear hip extension (glute max) moves the pelvis further along in it's rotation and allows the batter to tilt spine rearward. There's no rear knee extension because that would move the torso up and forward.

The forward movement creates momentum that can be loaded onto the front leg (quads, hamstrings, and glute max) to get more"load" for SSC (stretch shortening cycle)

Meanwhile... during the stride, the front leg is externally rotated (unchained) to open and face knee in direction of the pitcher. The external rotation allow almost a 90 degree alignment of the knee and leg to the partially rotated pelvis.
Efficient use of force to create rotation requires the force be perpendicular to the lever.
The front knee and hip extend (quads, hamstrings, and glute max) and apply a rearward push against the pelvis (towards the catcher) to turn the pelvis. The more the pelvis is turned, the better the perpendicular alignment of the force and resulting efficiency.
This is "the power movement."

At the beginning of the pelvis' rotational journey, the torso is counter rotated slightly by the obliques to remove slack so that when "the power move" happens, the bat is immediately affected.
The front and rear shoulders also use scap retraction for the same purpose. (other things are happening up there but that's another subject)
When the front knee and hip are extended, the torso uses the obliques to re-align the shoulders to the hips.
I see this in every high level swing. The front leg extends to launch the swing to the ball. No real barrel acceleration happens prior to this movement (even is a hands to ball swing)
IMO
I could be wrong.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Reciprocal Movement...... If there were GFR you would have rotated. I believe that some may think, that some do not believe that is the case......


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The GFR is via his rear sitting on the chair and the chair sitting on the ground.
@ shawn is the chair moving at all when you do the movement?
Is the chair anchored?