Hitting Questions?

[skeptic]

But for a college coach, if that's what you are, it is disappointing to see your online personality expressed in the manner I have been reading.

Ok, fair enough. You're probably right. I've been caustic and sarcastic.

On the other hand, I have expressed what I consider to be a very major limitation in the credibility of my primary antagonist on this thread. namely, that he doesn't instruct anybody. I also think that severely limits the credibility of his material. He has refused to address the point, so rather than trying to goad it out of him with sarcasm, I will move on. It is what it is, and I think people see it for what it is.

Yes, I do coach players on the HS and travel levels. I'm still learning, but have been at this for a while. I've been down the Setpro/Nyman/Englishbey road and found it to not represent what I see happening in major league hitters. But that is me; if you like it, more power to you.

Glad to hear you are involved as a coach.

I don't use the "system" of anyone, but I am open to learning and I try a lot of things. I once spoke to Englishbey on the phone, and found him amazingly willing to help, and incrediby knowledgable. I also think the swing on his web site is better than almost anyone else's I have seen (among the purveyors of hitting systems). Not perfect, but pretty damned good. Which says SOMETHING. I've spoken to others as well, or attended their presentations and clinics. They ALL seem like nice guys, frankly, and pretty sincere. Which is good. And I think there is value to weighing the pluses and minuses of all of them. Any of them are fair game for praise AND criticsm. And obviously some will like one more than others. But I swear to God, if you asked Guerry what time it was, he'd say that it was 2:00 for everyone except Nyman and Englishbey. He'd say everyone else has the SAME watch, but theirs is f'd up. Even if he believes that, which I doubt, he should give it a rest.

By the way, Tom is a nice guy, very helpful, and has helped a lot of people with hitting over the years. Like me, he sees the swing differently than the Setpro/Englishbey/PCR crowd.

You know, I believe that. My issue is not with him as a person. Sounds like he is philanthropic in his willingness to help. Great!

But how does someone know the help is valuable, rather than just nice?

 

[CoachB25]

skeptic, your post was a good read.

 

[tom.guerry]

skeptic -
The discussions often get to a level of detail where you can try something and see if it works.

My basic recommendation is to try to learn how to teach throwing well enough that you can teach throwing and hitting together.

An absolute KEY to this is understanding that the high level throw and swing motions are somewhat separate upper and lower and synching programs where the upper program leads and the lower program follows/synchs.

This sounds complex but is absolutely necessary for a good overhand throw and the ability to throw overhand well means learning the feel of the programs and how they synch, how to cock the hips,etc.

Plenty of (less than old days with less bad coaching and less distractions to get in way) kids still figure this out/throw well early in spite of really bad coaching because they get/understand feedback/what the result needs to be.

Much Nyman info is good, including his motor theory stuff (limited by the fact that he abandoned the upper/lower/synch approach when he could not figure out how to swing - one of the drawbacks of his self described hitting ability at level of 12 year old) ) and his throwing stuff. His ebook and setpro are good sites for this info. It is just necessary to point out where he is right and where is is off track.

Ron Wolforth is a good source for the throwing info as well.

What is missing from both is the early throwing arm action and synch details that were discovered by Hodge and publicized in his BIOMECHANICBASEBALL tape which unfortunately is very hard to find/out of circulation. In my opinion, this info is the absolute key to learning to throw overhand well and to carrying over the throwing motion to the MLB swing pattern.


I have described this in detail over the years in many fora and have received many comments back from coaches who found it to improve overhand throw.

Nyman was also good in realizing the importance of understanding scap action in the throw and swing, but while getting the action pretty much right in the throw, he gets the wrong/non-mlb action in the swing and has never understood the primary role scap function has in setting the swing pattern as 1v2 plane (Hardy figured this out in golf).

The following (and his abandoning the upper/lower/synch motor theory for the postmodernchaos/ecological model) is where Nyman went off track and where he and I parted ways:

setpro24 is SteveE and note how he fouls up the description of scap action at the end of this THT thread here. You CAN and DO Externally rotate the back arm while the back scap remains pinched toward the spine in both throwing and swinging (MLB pattern).


These simulations are good because they account for forces that can be applied via each arm, not just the lead arm as in the OVERsimplified lead arm only models.

The original discussions between Mankin and Hodge and SteveT (not SteveE) were at Hudgens old hitting.com site in the 1990's and here is one important prelude to these simulations from that time in a message from Nyman to Mankin:

Another place Nyman lacks understanding is the "xfactor stretch" concept which is the same concept as Nyman's cusp, but better and earlier described in golf:


Nyman claimed the fact that I discussed this outside of his website was "intellectual dishonesty", see:


That should be enough info to get you started sifting through the Nyman stuff much of which is worthwhile.

 

[BoardMember]

BM-

If you want to hear similarities between throw and swing start a thread. Studying this requires a throwing model.

What's yours ?

Your kidding right?

Speaking infield:

Set the posture for the required goal.

Load the shoulders against the hips.

Open the hips into plant off the rear leg, creating separation.

Load the rear elbow up and behind the throwing hand, and into the rear scap into plant, reaching Max Load at Toe Touch.

Externally rotate the forearm as the rear shoulder begins to fire to the target off the torque created by separation.

Narrow the overall radius by pulling the lead arm into front side, quickening the rotation.

Pronate the forearm through release.

Follow through with rotation to release energy............

Whats yours? Is it as simple as mine?

Do you have any clips of your students performance?

I do.........

Also, I noticed you avoided this question TWICE so far........

Can you tell me how early handle torque relates to throwing?????

Or will you avoid for a third time?.........

 

[tom.guerry]

Lost post, will try to rewrite when have time.

thanks for the good content and relative lack of ad hominem remarks.

 

[BoardMember]

Lost post, will try to rewrite when have time.

thanks for the good content and relative lack of ad hominem remarks.

prior description from eteamz:

Developing better arm action.

Tom, it doesn't take a 3 page 1600 word essay (your eteamz post word count) to teach throwing.

Please don't duplicate a post like that over here. I (and most others) won't read it.

In the simple context of teaching an actual youth player to properly throw a ball, try to summerize in 200 words or less.

Tell me how you would teach a youth player to throw a ball.......

This is a fastpitch board. THERE ARE NO OVERHAND PITCHERS IN THIS GAME........

So keep your content limited to teaching a student to throw from a position on the field IE infield or outfield..........and not just playing catch......

Mine was 94 words...........And can be supported by video of actual youth players, not MLB superstars who are already made.......

Can you participate here? Or not.........

 

[tom.guerry]

BM-

Your teams can be better if the outfield, short stop and evn 3rd base have a good overhand pitch/throw (mechanics are same). Even at the Olympic level they try to hide bad arms, especially in right field where for example throwing out some runners at the plate could help. lots of room for improvement.

Details are EXTREMELY important, but tricky becasue they have to be the RIGHT details. But the post incuded the cliff (not clif) notes:

So:

Get sideways

1- break the hands symmetrically with elbows up and palms down

2- lift and pinch

3- when the throwing thigh turns over,the throwing hand comes up.Stretch the body as much as possible as this happens by keeping the lead arm internally rotated and arching the back.

4-Keep the head back and get the throwing elbow flexed at 90 degrees as the torso starts to turn which then lays back the thrrowing arm more.

5- Land on a firmly flexed front leg with the toe pointed to the target.Throw to target with full pronation of arm and pure underspin.


That should be short enough.

Youhave to understand arm and scap action.

Lead arm INtenal rotation is especially important to prevent flying open.

Back arm synch with body is especially important for timing/loading.

All are extremely important for a consistent release.

It's a huge area of opportunity for fastpitch not only for better defense but better hitting as the loading pattern and synch carryover.

I will address your questions (torque,etc) specifically when I get time over the weekend.

Thanks again for the relative comity.

 

[BoardMember]

Reasonable enough.......And short enough.

A little more study on your part is appropriate regarding scap action for position throwing for example.

I'm not sure you understand the function of the lead shoulder during the loading phase. As we've discussed before regarding hitting, scap action is reciprocal, not simaltaneous........

During the loading phase, the front scap extends, as the rear scap pinches. During the unloading phase, the front scap pinches as the rear scap extends/unloads..........This action is critical to efficient/powerfull torso rotation.

If you ever attempted to teach my fielders to pinch both scaps during the load and put "pure" backspin on the ball, I'd throw you off the field (so to speak)...........

To understand the differences, you should start by studying the mechanical differences of someone who, under no time constraints, and standing on an elevated mound with a vertical drop, can cause severe internal/external rotation the rear thigh in the rear hip socket to assist in torque/torsion, pinch both scaps and still avoid "fly open" of the front shoulder.

As compared to someone who must generate torque/torsion while on level ground, and moving toward a target during the loading phase, where severe internal rotation of the rear thigh in the hip socket cannot occur during the loading phase, and pinching the front scap simaltaneously will cause "fly open" during the unload........

They are two very different animals...........Using two different mechanisms to generate the most torque available for a given movement.........

If you'd like to discuss the differences, lets continue.......First, go find some clips of an infielder making a play and study the front shoulder action.........Where/how the break occurs, and the reason for a non-symetrical move.......And whether he/she is "trying" to put pure backspin on the ball..........

This would be very evident to you IF you were ever actually on a field with a fielder, who is attempting to make a powerful, YET ACCURATE throw while "ON THE MOVE".........

BM-

Your teams can be better if the outfield, short stop and evn 3rd base have a good overhand pitch/throw (mechanics are same). Even at the Olympic level they try to hide bad arms, especially in right field where for example throwing out some runners at the plate could help. lots of room for improvement.

Details are EXTREMELY important, but tricky becasue they have to be the RIGHT details. But the post incuded the cliff (not clif) notes:

So:

Get sideways

1- break the hands symmetrically with elbows up and palms down

2- lift and pinch

3- when the throwing thigh turns over,the throwing hand comes up.Stretch the body as much as possible as this happens by keeping the lead arm internally rotated and arching the back.

4-Keep the head back and get the throwing elbow flexed at 90 degrees as the torso starts to turn which then lays back the thrrowing arm more.

5- Land on a firmly flexed front leg with the toe pointed to the target.Throw to target with full pronation of arm and pure underspin.


That should be short enough.

Youhave to understand arm and scap action.

Lead arm INtenal rotation is especially important to prevent flying open.

Back arm synch with body is especially important for timing/loading.

All are extremely important for a consistent release.

It's a huge area of opportunity for fastpitch not only for better defense but better hitting as the loading pattern and synch carryover.

I will address your questions (torque,etc) specifically when I get time over the weekend.

Thanks again for the relative comity.

 

[tom.guerry]

using Nyman model for throw, spine action is described as bow-arch-bow.

Applying this to MLB swing, spine action is just bow-arch.

In throwing the back scap UNpinches/UN loads to transition from arch to final bow. finishing the laying back of the throwing arm/loop which then reverese and accelerates the trhwoing hand primarily by INternal rotation.

In The MLB pattern of swinging, the back scap stays pinched, it does not unload before contact, but remains stable to support back arm action as well as front scap pinching if that is necessary.

the PCR/Nyman/Englishbey swing pattern is totally different becasue it involves swinging the scaps around the torss in cluding unpinching the back scap well before contact.

So when you think of the different scap action in the overhand throw and MLB swing, this helps understand how the preparation/loading is VERY similar up to a point, with the actual UNloading being different to fit with the bow-acrh bow of the throw as opposed to the bow-arch of the swing.

 

[RayR]

In The MLB pattern of swinging, the back scap stays pinched, it does not unload before contact, but remains stable to support back arm action as well as front scap pinching if that is necessary.

I am calling you on that one. How in the world can your back scap stay pinched and still make a move to the ball? The very thing you make fun of (a one piece, spin swing) is exactly what would happen if your back scap stayed pinched.



BM, I like your description and understanding that a throw from SS is different then throwing from a mound.

Have you used or seen Kabota's stuff?