Rotational Hitting

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RayR

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Front leg MUST turn open before hips and both must turn to start coiling before heel drop.

Not sure what you mean here, but here is my take on it

If the hitter coils/loads into the back leg/hip the hips will be at a negative angle (assuming squared up is 0 angle). As the hitter strides out the hips will move back to 0 angle and continue to positive angle. This will open the front foot. That is the difference between flipping the front foot open to start rotation and letting the uncoiling of the hips do it for you.

You don't need to think about landing open - the hips will open the front foot for you.

I agree that throwing and hitting are very similar. I also think that this is why most fastpitch players have terrible swings. They never learned to throw using their lower body correctly. Most hitting instructors come up with upper body techniques to solve the hitting problem - me included. (If you have worked with hitters HS age you come to understand just how difficult it is to get them to change their habits.)

And if the hitter can figure out how to load the upper body as the lower body is striding out in a balanced manner, they will solve the basic hitting and throwing pattern and be more whip like in their delivery on both bat and ball.
 
May 7, 2008
977
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San Rafael, Ca
MTS-

I agree throwing and swinging are very similar, as Candrea says, if you can throw, you can hit. And they have lots of good related concepts like conection/addition/rhythm etc.

None of that is like the shirt quick 5 frame PCR swing. That is what Candrea and Enquist are describing as the "gate swing".

If you want to teach throwing and swinging together, then you need a good throw model. I would suggest the best model here is a combo of the overall Nyman "buggy whip" supplemented by the Hodge details of arm action and upper lower body synch and the Wolforth details on scap and lead arm action ("double" bow-arch-bow as opposed to Nyman bow-arch-bow).

Without a model it s hard to organize the discusion.

Unfortunately, Nyman himself got confused when he developed the details of his PCR blueprint and ended up describing the type swing pattern that is NOT like an overhand throw which is why things like sidearm throw do not make sense to the PCR-fever crowd.

here is where Nyman went off track not undertstanding there are 2 very different total body patterns depending on how scaps/shoulders "function" in connecting body and arms. He was right the first time before he went for simplicity and a pattern of swinging that is not at all like throwing:

Active Hands and Bat Drag - Baseball Fever

Nyman:

"In the early days of SETPRO and in my early adventures in motor learning and control the first textbook I purchased was entitled "Motor Learning and Performance, From Principles to Practice" by Richard A. Schmidt.

Schmidt was a big proponent of motor programs i.e. the use the analogy of how a computer knows how to perform its functions under the direction of a program. The program concept was very prevailent in motor learning research from the 70s through the 80s. this motor learning approach was very attractive to me because of my background being in the design of computerized motion control systems.

And in the early days of SETPRO I postulated the theory that there were two separate control programs going on one for the upper body and one for the lower body and that they cooperated with each other possibly under the supervision of a third program.

Functionally this made sense i.e. you could identify with it but later on as I did more readings in the field of motor control and learning I do not subscribe to this multi-program belief anymore.

My reason for bringing this up is to highlight the actions of the upper and lower body and when we talk about swinging the bat, the mechanism that exerts the greatest influence on the quality of the swing will be the upper body which includes the upper torso shoulders and arms hands bat.

But what often gives the greatest problem is figuring out how to create the proper sequencing of lower body to upper body.
 
Jan 14, 2009
1,591
0
Atlanta, Georgia
My daughter's front foot is open 35 to 45 degrees when her heel plants. IMO and my wife's opinion (physical therapist) hitting with a closed front foot can lead to injury of the front knee.

Plus there are too many examples of ML players past and present who hit with an open front foot. Willie Mays and Pujols are two that come to mind.

I still think that a lot of the finer details of the swing happen instinctively. Epstein seems to understand this better than most. He says something along the lines of "the perfect swing being the adjustment the hitter makes to the pitch".

For instance as far as I can tell Epstein does not teach "tilt in". He focuses big time on maintaining the box. From teaching my daughter and a few others, I can say without a doubt that the most difficult movement for a hitter to master is keeping the box until contact or at least close to contact.

What I have found is that the over emphasis on the box leads my daughter to naturally "tilt in" to match the plane of her swing to the pitch. The over emphasis on the box forces her brain to come with an alternate way to match her swing plane to lower pitches while still trying to maintain the box.

The body eventually figures out that the best way to accomplish both is to "tilt in".
 
Jul 17, 2008
67
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The issue is not whether the foot lands closed or open. The issue is why it lands closed or open. Two different animals.

EXACTLY right, and lost on most. Very, very good point. Hips drive the rotation, and if the foot comes open, it does. You DON'T fan open the front nee and foot to clear the way for the hips. Not if you want to generate any power, anyway.


Tom's usual mantra on throwing / hitting is predictable.

Probably some value in the approach for some. And if there is, great.

But there are PLENTY of RH throwers who bat left-handed rather than right-handed. For THOSE people, this would be absolute gibberish. In FastPitch AND MLB.

So it obviously isn't an absolute, even though he tries to make it one.


And DON"T map hitting to sidearm throwing. For one thing, lots of kids are catchers and outfielders and would NEVER throw side-armed. And as pointed out above by Mark (and me), great hitters DO NOT "skip rocks." Their hands are still up somewhere near the rear shoulder as they come around the corner. Mapping hitting to the SIDEARM throw WILL be a disaster for many, perhaps most. Trust me on this, unless you have a very clear idea of what you are doing and understand timing measured in the milliseconds, this WON'T work for your daughter. And you may end up with a problem you'll never be able to fix.


MTS's point that SB players need better lower body throwing mechanics is fine, excellent even. By all means, improve this. It may well help hitting, as there ARE similarities. But DON'T try ANYTHING CLOSE to what feels like "skipping a rock" in your swing.


As for Tom's usual slams on the PCR pattern, I don't undertand his rants on that. I'm told by those more familiar with it than me that Tom isn't even close to understanding it (because none of those guys will even TALK to him), and that in fact he used to be a moderator at Nyman's web site (Nyman invented it). And was fired from that job, then decided he hated the methodology.

IF that s true - and Tom should set it straight if it isnt, and I will back down - he was obviously disingenious before or since. At BEST.


In college softball today, I see more conformity to the MLB swing than anytime since I've been involved (20 years +). And the swing looks far more like what I see posted of clips from guys like Englishbey than it does from Epstein (Tom's guy). I think Englishbey is one that Tom casts aside disparagingly as a "PCR guy."

Well, OK, whatever. It is working OK from where I sit.

No agenda here. Those are my observations.
 
Jul 17, 2008
67
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For instance as far as I can tell Epstein does not teach "tilt in". He focuses big time on maintaining the box. From teaching my daughter and a few others, I can say without a doubt that the most difficult movement for a hitter to master is keeping the box until contact or at least close to contact.

You might be on to something there. It IS difficult, under any circumstances. It is IMPOSSIBLE if you are trying to skip a rock, but difficult under any conditions. But it is very important to keep it until the last frame or two before contact.


But I don't think Epstein talks anything about the box. Or even tells hitters where their hands and arms should be. Not in his instructional materials anyway. he simply tells them to rest the bat on the deltoid.

Epstein may well talk about it in other places. And great if he does - he should be talking about it.

But he has sold tens of thousands of tapes / DVDs and the VAST majority of those people never consulted anything other than the DVD.


I THINK "keeping the box" is a Nyman / Englishbey term. I know it is a point of emphasis for them to connect the bat to the body, tilt, and turn.

And I am finding it works against college level pitching. So I think you are on track. But you may want to check out Englishbey as a better authority on this than Epstein. I have found his material helpful.


As for the front foot being open, your observation is right. MANY elite hitters do have an open foot. Others, like Bonds, talk often about trying to keep it closed. But that could well be as simple as how hitters describe a 45 degree angled front foot. Could be seen as open, could be seen as closed. Depends on your point of view.


But as MTS asked, what CAUSES it?

That is the key, and with really good hitters, I DON'T think it is the knee and foor coming open as a prelude to hip rotation. I think it is the actual rotation of the hips that causes it.

Sounds like you are thinking and experimenting a lot with your daughter. Good! Hope it pays off for her.
 
Jul 17, 2008
67
0
My daughter's front foot is open 35 to 45 degrees when her heel plants. IMO and my wife's opinion (physical therapist) hitting with a closed front foot can lead to injury of the front knee.

I have NEVER seen this happen.

If there are range of motion issues, the knee will open up. Unless you have 3" spikes in mud or something.


But again, the foot does open for elite hitters. Some at heel plant, some during the swing before contact, for almost it opens further after contact. The foot opens.

Timing of when it opens is probably imporatnt for very, very advanced hitters looking for the last little edge.

But what is far more important is what CAUSES the foot to open. I believe that with the best hitters, it is a result fo the hips beginning to roate. With VERY good hitters, this happens during the stride. With no stride hitters, or beginning-to-intermediate hitters, it happens around or just after foot plant. But the hips begin to powerfully rotate and drive the swing. That is an absolute.
 
Jul 17, 2008
67
0
As one of Tom's guys (Mankin) says, in disagreement with Epstein (even though Tom says they are saying the same thing) - it "uses up" the hips without creating power.

Mankin is right.


Notice you ddn't respond to this.

Even though Mankin and Epstein are allegedly saying the same thing Tom, Mankin specifically disagrees with him on his DVD.

Go set him straight, tell him what he really means, and get back to us would you please?



I tried to read your posts of today Tom. I just gave up. You NEVER address the points people make or do anything other than republish your same stuff in different (not that much different, actually) verbiage.

You have worn me out, for sure.

But unless you can explain that you DO work with kids, or explain why it isn't important, I can't give credibility to your meanderings. I don't tell you how to be a doctor, and I wouldn't unless I had actually done it in this millenium. You should extend the same courtesy, or at least address the point. Otherwise, I have lost interest in conversing with you.


I think you also should explain why yo used to support Nyman and no longer do. If it is because the material is wrong, why were you affiliated with him? Seems agenda-laden to me.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
skeptic -

If you want a specific response, just let me know the single thing you want addressed and i will be glad to.

In the MLB pattern, the front leg opens first by external rotation BEFORE the his turn open, then the hips turn open. This is the well timed coil of the body (well timed by synch of back arm external rotation and lead leg external rotation, same as in overhand throw).

After this is underway there is the drop and tilt/GO move when the hips fire while being resisted by the handle torque and shoulder tilt that is setting the matching swing plane.

Teach keeping front foot closed and thinking that hip turn opens the front foot is getting the sequence wrong and degrading the pattern.

You dont turn the front foot open with the hips in throwing either.

Take some throws and hacks.

Feel the pattern.
See the pattern on video or in the mirror or watching someone.

The MLB gurus are all describing the same pattern with some different points of emphasis/ different bracketing, but it's the same deep
pattern/potential being described - Mankin, Lau, Slaught, Peavy, Epstein, Baker, Schmidt, Hudgens, etc.

Not PCR.

PCR is incompatible and prevents learning the MLB pattern.

It's not a rant it's "the truth".
 
Jan 14, 2009
1,591
0
Atlanta, Georgia
Code:
But I don't think Epstein talks anything about the box. Or even tells hitters where their hands and arms should be. Not in his instructional materials anyway. he simply tells them to rest the bat on the deltoid.

Wow, this is very interesting. Maybe we're talking about something different.

I have Epsteins standard DVD material and as I've studied and used it over the last four years I understand Mike to believe that maintaining the box is critical to the swing. He places a lot of emphasis on it. So much so that he states that if a hitter allows his hands to get too far away from their body they have lost their swing.

When I use the term "box" I am referring to the position of the arms from launch to contact. Epstein often uses the term "being in the envelope" to describe the box.

I know there is a lot of disagreement with Epstein on how he keeps the preload part of the swing simple. Many believe performing drills with the back elbow slotted and the bat on the deltoid of the back shoulder is wrong and teaches bad habits. I have not found that to be the case.

Epstein's drills sacrifice some scap loading in the interest of maintaining the box from launch to contact. In my daughter's case as she became comfortable with her new mechanics she started to scap load naturally.

IMO scap loading is a natural movement that the body wants to do. I have found it's hard to keep kids from doing it. I just gave my daughter the green light to start working on scap loading again. We tried it last year but she kept letting the bat head drop when her hands went back so I made her go back to the bat on the deltoid setup.

She is now 12 and it's amazing how much better her motor skills are from a year ago. I'm very encouraged that she will now be able to keep her bat head angle correct as she scap loads. Last night we were working on the scap load in conjunction with the hips, and she said for the first time "Dad I can actually feel the whip effect you've been talking about".

Thank you mother nature!
 
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