Candera teaches what Don Slaught teaches to MLB players. Does a golfer or a tennis player, or a Quarterback throwing the ball use a rotational or a Linear move. Or do they use both as Don teaches. Try to hit a golf ball using only one of the above and you will have an answer.
Rotational Hitting
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Hi lvtwft,
I think your boxing analogy falls short. Rotational hitting is not like a boxers jab, it is like an upper cut. You match your bat to the plane of the ball, your front shoulder is elevated slightly higher than your back shoulder and you use your back leg to adjust your bodies height and drive your hands through the ball as you swing. That's a knock out punch.
After three sessions with Epstein certified instructors I've seen my daughter drive balls over the infielders heads deep into the outfield. A jab would only produce an ineffective line drive that would be easily fielded by the infield 80% of the time.
Re: Candrea, he is a great coach so I mean this respectfully. What happened with his team in the Olympics? I assume he was overseeing their hitting. Where did it go against the Japanese in the Gold Medal game? Only Bustos hit well and all Ueno had to do was intentionally walk her and the USA offense was done. And as I recall Angela Tincher no hit them while she was still in college.
Best Regards,
Pops
Later in this thread Candrea's hardest challenge...some say - they discuss Olympic hitting and personnel choices. Thought you might enjoy.
This is really not a point of contention with anyone. No question ML hitters stride. A stride that includes linear and rotational motions. The point of contention is the redefinition of historically used terms.
Here's a stride with linear movement and rotation. Commonly called "forward by turning". Photo 11 of 31, Analysis
Of course once the heel plants in a non fooled standard swing that front hip joint must cease moving forward.
Good point Mark. We draw a line down from the head and the head cannot go forward from heel plant. Sounds like we have ran into some of the same things. I have parents that are 100 % squish the bug, but after you do the definition of the term and then show them what the back foot actually does, they understand. I love the ability to show them the daughter's swing in slow motion frame by frame.
I think Epstein has the best way of "cueing" heel plant with "drop and tilt".
His description includes how to stop lunging as well as how to adjust axis on fly for up vs down using the MLB pattern. Also key is his description of how to prepare for this by rubberband winding/etc. These are truly breakthrough aspects of the MLB pattern that are not described anywhere else.
His description includes how to stop lunging as well as how to adjust axis on fly for up vs down using the MLB pattern. Also key is his description of how to prepare for this by rubberband winding/etc. These are truly breakthrough aspects of the MLB pattern that are not described anywhere else.
Sounds like you are doing a world of good. Keep an eye on that front hip joint at heel plant too.
I've seen the Slaught "skip the rock" clip and it looks to me like it is just a different way of saying "slot the elbow".
It's hard for me to believe that two people with trained eyes like Don and Mike can look at the same video data and see something completely different? But maybe so.
It's hard for me to believe that two people with trained eyes like Don and Mike can look at the same video data and see something completely different? But maybe so.
Well said Wellfyt.
Both Epstein and Slaught are describing the same pattern in great detail. There can be a lot of value in reconciling where they conflict. Come up with a model that fits both as closely as possible and the results can be synergistic.
Sometimes there is a conflict, sometimes just different words. Sometimes a different sequence.
As another example, we can compare getting to toe touch then drop and tilt/hell plant. You seem very familiar with epstein who describes how to get to toe touch/prepare for heel drop as :
"wind the rubberband as you stride to balance at toe touch with the front foot open".
Compare this to Enquist's (after Slaught) detailed description of getting to toe touch then heel plant here:
#37, enquist, "rotation principles":
1-Enquist describes hips opening as being synched to back elbow starting down-GOOD INFO, compatible with Epstein.Good way to describe synch of upper and lower body with lower responding to upper as with throwing.
2-she says you should not open the hips until toe touch - BAD INFO, not compatible with Epstein, Epstein is better based on video of MLB and well desribed by Epstein as need for rubberbandwinding starting before toe touch with his particular emphasis on short quick belly up swing also fitting with front foot well open at toe touch.
Discouraging a hitter from getting the hips open as part of coiling prior to toe touch is EXTREMELY limiting and can only work with a very long "counterrotated" MLB swing (George Brett/Lau SR style where recommendation is to kepp front foot and hips closed), Even in this case there is coil/rubberbandwinding it is just done with too much upper body turn back/too long a swing radius while hips stay closed
3-She says rotation starts around front hip - very different from Epstein who says drill feels like stride to balance then weight carried more over inside of back thigh with drop and tilt - who is right here ? I think you have to look at video and take hacks and compare to others doing the same, but I will go with back hip as getting the rotation going, not front. Front leg provides a base to rotate over, but it is clearing as you wind the rubber band and responding to the thrust of the back hip, not anything like the 50-50 weight then front hip rotation that Enquist demonstartes.
Both Epstein and Slaught are describing the same pattern in great detail. There can be a lot of value in reconciling where they conflict. Come up with a model that fits both as closely as possible and the results can be synergistic.
Sometimes there is a conflict, sometimes just different words. Sometimes a different sequence.
As another example, we can compare getting to toe touch then drop and tilt/hell plant. You seem very familiar with epstein who describes how to get to toe touch/prepare for heel drop as :
"wind the rubberband as you stride to balance at toe touch with the front foot open".
Compare this to Enquist's (after Slaught) detailed description of getting to toe touch then heel plant here:
#37, enquist, "rotation principles":
1-Enquist describes hips opening as being synched to back elbow starting down-GOOD INFO, compatible with Epstein.Good way to describe synch of upper and lower body with lower responding to upper as with throwing.
2-she says you should not open the hips until toe touch - BAD INFO, not compatible with Epstein, Epstein is better based on video of MLB and well desribed by Epstein as need for rubberbandwinding starting before toe touch with his particular emphasis on short quick belly up swing also fitting with front foot well open at toe touch.
Discouraging a hitter from getting the hips open as part of coiling prior to toe touch is EXTREMELY limiting and can only work with a very long "counterrotated" MLB swing (George Brett/Lau SR style where recommendation is to kepp front foot and hips closed), Even in this case there is coil/rubberbandwinding it is just done with too much upper body turn back/too long a swing radius while hips stay closed
3-She says rotation starts around front hip - very different from Epstein who says drill feels like stride to balance then weight carried more over inside of back thigh with drop and tilt - who is right here ? I think you have to look at video and take hacks and compare to others doing the same, but I will go with back hip as getting the rotation going, not front. Front leg provides a base to rotate over, but it is clearing as you wind the rubber band and responding to the thrust of the back hip, not anything like the 50-50 weight then front hip rotation that Enquist demonstartes.
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Tom is right, this IS bad. Hips should rotate into toe plant, and do for any elite hitter.
Less right here. Opening the hips is very good. Opening the front foot PRIOR to the hips rotating is far less than ideal. Marginalizes the pelvic muscles. As one of Tom's guys (Mankin) says, in disagreement with Epstein (even though Tom says they are saying the same thing) - it "uses up" the hips without creating power.
Mankin is right.
I think Sue is right.
It is extremely difficult to PUSH into rotation. Easy enough to start linear movement that way, but not rotational movement.
The terms are imperfect, but if you are initiating forward movement from the rear side of the body, it is essentially a push. And doing it from the front side essentially makes it a pull.
Tom's advice to try it is good. he should too, with some students, but perhaps I have overstated that point. It matters though, as there is no other guage for wehat really works, and he truley doesn;t know, and can't know because he doesn;t do it.
Still, this is good advice. Try both, and see which approach leads to quicker, more efficient, TIGHTER rotation. And which hits the ball further. Suspect you'll end up agreeing with Enquist, not Epstein. But it is definitely worth trying.
WOW !!!!!!!!
SKEPTIC WITH THE CONTENT !!!!!
THANKS !!!!!!!
Here is a key problem:
skeptic:
"Less right here. Opening the hips is very good. Opening the front foot PRIOR to the hips rotating is far less than ideal. "
Skeptic - One KEY to acelerating learning of the MLB pattern is its similarity to overhand and sidearm throw.
Slaught/Candrea/Enquist and even Dixon are very good at using this, recognizing the similarity in rhythm. A long slow (slaught would say "linear" I would say rotational becasue it is all controlled by setting up and executing torquing force on the handle) with the upper body in control.
See also Schwanke like throwing drills to feel the difference in back elbow position for going oppo vs pull.
See alos yeager's method of synching body to top hand action.
ARM ACTION IS KING IN SETTING PATTERN.
Upper and lower body need to synch.
Slaught/Enquist/Candrea are right when they say "back elbow starts rotation" and "hips synch with back elbow".
The way this happens is the lower body mirrors the same action as the upper body, specifically by synching external rotation of the back arm to external rotation of the front leg.
This is how you get good timing of coil/good coil/synch of upper and lower body programs. Same in throwing - when the throwing arm brings the throwing hand up (back arm external rotation rotation while "keeping back elbow up") then the stride leg turns over (external rotation of front leg).
So if you force keeping the front foot closed, then you prevent synching the upper and lower body and prevent the upper body from controlling the motion.
Front leg MUST turn open before hips and both must turn to start coiling before heel drop.
It helps to think more about how trow and swing are similar. From trowing it s much easier to learn hip cock and body synch then apply this to the swing.
SKEPTIC WITH THE CONTENT !!!!!
THANKS !!!!!!!
Here is a key problem:
skeptic:
"Less right here. Opening the hips is very good. Opening the front foot PRIOR to the hips rotating is far less than ideal. "
Skeptic - One KEY to acelerating learning of the MLB pattern is its similarity to overhand and sidearm throw.
Slaught/Candrea/Enquist and even Dixon are very good at using this, recognizing the similarity in rhythm. A long slow (slaught would say "linear" I would say rotational becasue it is all controlled by setting up and executing torquing force on the handle) with the upper body in control.
See also Schwanke like throwing drills to feel the difference in back elbow position for going oppo vs pull.
See alos yeager's method of synching body to top hand action.
ARM ACTION IS KING IN SETTING PATTERN.
Upper and lower body need to synch.
Slaught/Enquist/Candrea are right when they say "back elbow starts rotation" and "hips synch with back elbow".
The way this happens is the lower body mirrors the same action as the upper body, specifically by synching external rotation of the back arm to external rotation of the front leg.
This is how you get good timing of coil/good coil/synch of upper and lower body programs. Same in throwing - when the throwing arm brings the throwing hand up (back arm external rotation rotation while "keeping back elbow up") then the stride leg turns over (external rotation of front leg).
So if you force keeping the front foot closed, then you prevent synching the upper and lower body and prevent the upper body from controlling the motion.
Front leg MUST turn open before hips and both must turn to start coiling before heel drop.
It helps to think more about how trow and swing are similar. From trowing it s much easier to learn hip cock and body synch then apply this to the swing.
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