Rotational Hitting

Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Aug 1, 2008
2,314
63
ohio
Tom

Quote
you have never played golf, you can get to the range and experience the feel of trying a single plane middle out shoulder turm dominant swing and how it feels entirely different from a 2 plane hips and arms swing.




I dont play golf and do not know how to go to a range and make these swings.


Show me some video of the 2
Or show me video of a person you taught to do this.




Thanks
Straightleg
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
As Mark says, straight, it's good to watch the best and try to understand what they do. These 2 videos are good at explaining the difference including not only different players using the different patterns, but the same players who have changed patterns going from 2 plane to 1 plane becasue of injury problems:

Hardy & Jacobsen - 05/16/05 - Golf Channel Video

Jacobsen & Hardy - 10/21/03 - Golf Channel Video

Golf ranges have pros who know the difference and video that will take the same swing from numerous angles.

Hardy's books and DVD's have enough info to gudie you in experiencing the different feels of the different swings.

In golf, BOTH swings execute a high level connected/segmented pattern, BUT each pattern is HUGELY different and best understood in its "pure" form as Hardy describes the models.

Learning to minimize the mixing of incompatible sequencing/positions/feels is what constitutes "good mechanics".

There IS such a thing as good mechanics.

In golf, "good mechanics" can be either a fairly pure 1 OR 2 plane pattern/sequence of positions/feels.

In MLB hitting, the vast majority of great hitters have a 2 plane pattern.

In fastpitch, the majority have disconnected arm swings.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
more specific areas.

skeptic said:

"The throw thing is interesting. May be some validity there. However, cues like "skipping rocks" seem to me to basically suck, because it is TOO good. TOO easy to emulate. And kids take it literally. Why wouldn't they? Candrea says "skip a rock, I'll skip a rock." When I skip a rock, my hand trails my elbow, but it also loops below the elbow. When an elite hitter's hands trail the rear elbow, it seems to me that the rear forearm remains pretty vertical. The hands are still near the back shoulder, and pretty level with it. Doesn't look like any rock skipping I have seen. In fact, I would judge it impossible to skip a rock starting with the hands in this position. It is way different, and it's a very important difference."



So first,let's apply the pattern filter in analyzing the "if you can throw you can hit" cue and it's more particular version likening the swing tia "sidearm throw".

This cue applies to the 2 plane/MLB hitting pattern.

Each pattern has a particular kind of arm action which fits in a particular way with a particular arm action.

1 plane golf - arms swing around body as body turns. arms line up with shoulders at top of backswing. arms throw hands onto inner circle where they stay on downswing through contact

2 plane golf - arms swing up and down in front of body as body turns

1 plane/PCR hitting - arms swing around body with circular handpath or handpath hook for inside powered by shoulder turn/lead arm pull, adjust up/down by bend at waist.

2 plane/MLB hitting - arms forearms and shoulders (tilt not turn) power hands in torquing handle to control adjustment of load to fire bathead in matched trajectory/plane to produce lengthy contact zone


only the last/MLB pattern has arm action resembling the arm action of the high level overhand throw or similar but lower arm slot sidearm throw.

to understand what the cues mean requires understanding the overhand throw pattern and the MLB swing pattern. These understandings in turn require the existence of some sort of consistent universal aspect of arm action.

Does such a description/model exist ?

With regard to overhand/sidearm throw, I believe an adequate model can be derived from a combination of Nyman's (setpro) "buggy whip" model plus the arm action sequence and synch description by Jeff Hodge (BIOMECHANICBASEBALL).

The buggywhip model likens the spine to the handle of a buggy whip which bends back and forth (bow-arch-bow) to whip the arm loop (whip) to throw the ball (popper).

the torso action is a sequential blend of flatbed/merrygoround/ferris wheel action.

the scaps load/pinch to connect the arm to the torso for the merrygoround action whick lays backthe arm to start forming the arm loop, then the scaps unload/unpinch to finish the loop formation and support the transition from merrygoround to ferris wheel so the final "bow" of the spine can whip the arm loop and ball.

weight goes from back to front and shifts to the front/lead foot to support the reversal of arch to final bow of spine.

Hodge describes the specifics of arm action when the body gets sideways -hands cone into middle- then the hands break with arms working symmetrically by abduction and internal rotation - break hands with elbows up and palms down.

(as the elbows come up, the scaps begin pinching consistent with the Nyman "lift and pinch" cue -lifting arms and pinching scaps toward spine).

next Hodge describes how the upper and lower body synch via simultaneous external rotation of the back arm and front leg - "as the throwing hand starts up, the front thigh turns over".

At this point it is stressed by Hodge that the arm action becomes asymmetric with the front arm needing to continue to internally rotate in the front shoulder socket as the key to then preventing the front shoulder from flying open open while the twist works up from the hips to turn the merrygoround without rushing.

the throwing hand then continues to smoothly lay back/externally rotate as the shoulders/merrygoround are turned, then the smooth continuous arm loop fromation/external rotation is finished /fully lated back and reversed by unpinching/unloading of scaps as mentioned above.

This model can then be objectively used to guide cue creation and interpretation compatible with the model. drills can backward chain to learn theend of the motion well and can forward chain from the beginning to get the sequence of positions right that can successfully result in the full motion.


Once you have a throwing model, then you need to have a similarly derived swing model to compare and contrast to the 2 plane/MLB.

The overhand throw and MLB swing models are motions that Nyman originally recognized as somehat separate upper and lower body actions/programs that are synched with top down contr of a bottom up action.

Unlike the throwing model, the initial arm action is Asymmetric or alternating, startting with what Lau Sr called "rhythmic preswing activity". This is in preparation for the cocking then torquing of the handle that will be necessary when the bat is uncocks later.

Also unlike the throw, the MLB swing s only bow-arch of the spine with the weight shift/flatbed going back to middle and up, not back to front.

The merrygoround and ferris wheel elements are much more overlapping and blended in a different way.

In the MLB swing the arm (hand/forearm/upper arm) action controls the organization of the swing loading the torso between the upper and lower body and adjusting where and when the bathead fires to create the desired contact zone at the right time. Scap action is very different.

The back arm action and front arm action are very similar to the early loading phase of the overhand throw. The actual throwing of the bathead is different so the entire action is by no means conveyed by the "side arm/rock skipping cue" as pointed out by skeptic. But the early part is VERY similar so that learning to throw and swing together is very worthwhile.

More swing arm action details to follow if desired when time permits.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
as far as age is concerned, I think of it as how does this relate to tapping into the natural built in patterns.

kids can find a pattern as early as age 3 or so. you can tyr to expedite things if they are older,think of Tiger Woods in golf with his coach/father applying his special ops info to his son, or see a golfer whose parents just showed him the golf channel:

SonnyRadio.com :: Kyle Lograsso Full Video Best Quality

this kid is a natural 2 planer. what will happen when he starts thinking about it and/or gets an "instructor" ?

Will the instructor follow or fight mother nature ?



for swinging, there are two high level options, 1 and 2 plane, and there are also developmental requirements preceding this where learner's go through stages of arm swing, then upper body and arm, then total body(high level/2 options).

The arm action of the MLB swing is necessary to control the pattern and the usual/earliest/easiest place to learn this is overhand throw.In addition to helping learn how to "cock the hands",throwing is also a good way to learn the negative move and hip cock which are necessary requirements of the MLB swing.

So work on throw and hitting together with emphasis on arm action as bridge between the two,especially early arm action whic h takes place in the slow/beginning parts of the motion.
 
Jul 17, 2008
67
0
as far as age is concerned, I think of it as how does this relate to tapping into the natural built in patterns.

Positively Dixonesque. Do you agree that these are God-given patterns, as Dixon maintained?


to understand what the cues mean requires understanding the overhand throw pattern and the MLB swing pattern.

So then you'd agree that they are shi**y cues on a mass-market video?

Since people on internet hitting boards don't understand this (no one seems to understand it like you do, for example), the people merely buying a video aren't going to.

I'll renew my point:

If you tell a 12-14 yer old girl to skip a rock, she WON'T put that into a context she can't begin to understand - e.g. the MLB two-plane swing as best seen in golf (yes that was sarcastic). Intead, she will skip a rock. And Slaught / Candrea SHOULD know this - in fact, it is henious if they don't. And despite your apparent resistance, and insistence that it makes sense as a cue for kids, you SHOULD know it to.

HORRIBLE CUE for the intended market. No matter WHAT Candrea "means." Or what YOU THINK Candrea means. Horrible, basically indefensible, as far as I am concerned. Which is NOT to say that Candrea is a bad coach, or a bad hitting coach, or a bad guy. I've met him, he's none of those things. And obviously, his success speaks for itself, and if he used the cue IN PERSON with a hitter, I'm sure it would have the result he intends. He WON'T be using it in person with the 10K (or whatever) kids who buy his video. Neither will those kids' parents / instructors understand how he really means it, or how you do. They WILL understand how to skip a rock. How can this work?.

It's ALMOST as bad a cue as "squish the bug."


The challenge here, Tom, is NOT to blend all this stuff together, as you spend thousands of hours doing. Instead, it is to teach kids to hit. On this site, it is to teach girl kids to hit. While I know you have friends who will defend your material and approach, I am frankly SKEPTICal that there is any meaningful chance that your descripions could be used for mainstream hitting instruction.


When you work with kids, how do you fill the half hour each week? Can you describe a lesson for a TYPICAL 12 year old girl? What happens week 2? Week 12? (Seems fair, since you aparently believe kids swing in one of two patterns, and that almost all female swings are "disconnected arm swings.") Meaning that they are pretty similar to each other. So generalize. What have you done? What has been the rate of improvement? What has been the success rate (if you say anything even CLOSE to 100%, I won't believe another word - no one accomplishes this).



This model can then be objectively used to guide cue creation and interpretation compatible with the model. drills can backward chain to learn theend of the motion well and can forward chain from the beginning to get the sequence of positions right that can successfully result in the full motion.

Of all that you said, thus is the potentially most interesting. Can you give specifics? You've spent several thousand words - on this thread alone (probably literally MILLIONS over the years) defining your version of reality. I respect that, even if I don't agree. So NOW (you having accomplished the definition of reality - I guess), cues are appropriate. What have you found to be effective?



this kid is a natural 2 planer. what will happen when he starts thinking about it and/or gets an "instructor" ?

Will the instructor follow or fight mother nature ?

Not a bad point. See Jim Furyk interviews, where he has talked about all the instructors and potential college coaches (offering schiolarships) who wanted to "fix" him.


However, I think the point is that a HUGE part of instruction is understanding the individual hitter's make-up, experience, athletecism, and thought process sufficiently that you can create UNIQUE cues that work for that kid. By work, I mean gradually improve the movement patterns and success. I read Sarge one time talk about how to do this without creating consequences you didn't intend being the hardest part of instruction. I think I would believe that. Having success with one hitter may / may not prove the effectiveness of an instructor. Having success with multiple students absolutely proves it.

And so at SOME point, theory has to be applied. Repeatedly, with a lot of kids. This is the value. Do you agree? Are you able to do it?



The arm action of the MLB swing is necessary to control the pattern and the usual/earliest/easiest place to learn this is overhand throw.In addition to helping learn how to "cock the hands",throwing is also a good way to learn the negative move and hip cock which are necessary requirements of the MLB swing.

You have made huge leaps of logic here. Assuming your premise of overlap is valid - doubtful, especially for people who throw RH and bat LH for example - (a phenomenon common enough to ALONE disprove your overlap theory as anywhere near universally applicable) - then it would be just as valid to learn to hit and use that as a basis to learn to throw.



kids can find a pattern as early as age 3 or so. you can tyr to expedite things if they are older,think of Tiger Woods in golf with his coach/father applying his special ops info to his son, or see a golfer whose parents just showed him the golf channel:

If he found (at age 3) the pattern that took him into professional golf, it was 2-plane, right? Which he changed to one-plane in his late 20s, right?

Prooving what, from your perspective?

How does that differ from Mickelson learning to hit opposite-hand (LH) because he could more easily stand opposite his dad and mirror-image HIS swing. Was that just luck that he apparently tapped into the "right" pattern? (maybe it was).

Still, these questions create holes in your logic process, Tom. And that process is further blurred because you've presented NO evidence (but many statements) indicating that the baseball swing is a cross-over from golf.


Tom, I appeciate your effort to educate. But it is too much theory, not enough application. For me, anyway. Talk to me (us) about application of your theories. How you have worked with kids. Failures (THAT will ESTABLISH your credibility). Successes. There is a certain value to being an encyclopedia. There is more value to being a hands-on instructor, though. At least in my opinion.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
skeptic- thanks for the provocative questions. I will try to take on a few:

I wrote:as far as age is concerned, I think of it as how does this relate to tapping into the natural built in patterns.

Skeptic:positively Dixonesque. Do you agree that these are God-given patterns, as Dixon maintained?

-----------

Good stuff !

Dixon's exceptional player book was dedicated to Lau Sr whose work helped Dixon teach a good swing to his son.

Lau's approach is a UNIVERSAL'S based approach which is based o the assumption that all high level/MLB hitters share the same pattern.

Dixon then tried to understand how to teach throwing and hitting together building things up from Lau's swing model. HE attempted a "there is such a thing as good mechanics" there is such a thing as a universal pattern of body position sequences that were very similar between throwing and swinging. So this book was aUNIVERSAL's based apporach to teaching throwing and swinging which he thought were very similar patterns.

Dixon was not describing anything remotely like the PCR guidelines. His work had many good features, especially his hip cock info described as establishing off center balance via a particular type of muscle activation/tone/lift by pinching/establishing offcenter balance permitting carrying the mass forward by turning etc.

Dixon then began having second thought about this Universal's approach being consciously taught or teachable and spent the rest of his time trying to develop some sort of mysterious Alexander type mystical/fundamentalist way of tapping into the natural pattern.

I personaly do NOT think you HAVE to believe in God and a single given universal pattern which can best be learned by connecing to it with via faith, BUT I think a good theory would explain how this apporach might work.

In general, there are more modern ways of thinking about why there are inborn patterns that exist in nature which do not require the active/"consc ious" intervention of a creator/God. This fundamentalist view would say that the creator God makes humans with potentials given ahead of time which can be realized in life, so called "a priori"/givens.

From a postmodern/non-religious perpsective this would be considered the "myth of the given" as opposed to the post modern perspective that things are not just given and discovered, but are to some extent constructed by interactions between subjects and objects and open to some (but not total) freedom of expression and interpretation.

So rather than postulating a creator god who put a patern into each human to be realized, we can observe many people over time (observe them externally by vision/motionanalysis/ground force plates/etc AND observe them INternally by asking them what they felt when they did was observed) and see whether patterns are seen.

These observations would then be used to look for ptterns.things that fit/don't fit together.

Patterns defined in this manner then are not necessarily a priori givens from the creator God, but are models we can reconstruct in hindsight that apply on the fly to new observations. These are then "a posteriori reconstructions" of an existing pattern that confirms we are not born as a blank slate.

So how to proceed ?

I would say that the reason Dixon failed in his first universals attempt was that he failed to understand 1- where throwing and swinging are similar and where they are different and 2- that there are separate high level patterns that should not be mixed.


Dixon recognized a hierarchy of DEVELOPMENTAL patterns from arm throw to body throw to total body throw(pull - spin - whip), and he recognized throwing and swinging were similar, BUT he confused the high level/mature patterns to the point of not helping learning, so he gave up and went the god given route.

Rather than give up, I would say that there are adequate models to guide learning AND when you apply a pattern filter, then you are left with compatible/fitting feel cues that can be interpreted based on conforming to the objective universals.

SO in summary, there is ONE high level overhand throw pattern with different blends of the ferris wheel and merrygoround components based on arm slot (overhand vs sidearm vs submarine) and there are 2 total body swing patterns as discovered in golf, either 1 plane or 2 plane.

And that is all you need to apply the pattern filter.

High level throwing and the 2 plane swing are both upper body/lower body separate but synched actions which have a similar early arm action.

PCR type 1 plane swinging is not like overhand throw. Nor is it like the MLB swing. It is similar to single plane golf.

So patterns are inborn and they are evolving and they persist because they have dramatic advantages over alternatives. For example, with a good overhand throw pattern applied to the MLB situation, this pattern results in velocity and control and resistance to injury ALL improving together.

The patterns can be defined as a sequence of positions and in the case of MLB throwing and swinging, to an arm action sequence that is key to synching the upper and lower body.

This means applying the pattern filter from the outset is essential.

I call this the "patterns based absolutes" or "pattern based universals" approach. In the case of learning MLB throwing and swinging patterns together, "arm action is king".

If you can throw, you can hit.

If you learn to recognize the look and feel of the patterns you do NOT have to depend on a faith based approach.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
skeptic -

I said:
"to understand what the cues mean requires understanding the overhand throw pattern and the MLB swing pattern."

You said:
"So then you'd agree that they are shi**y cues on a mass-market video?"

I said that teaching-learning requires an ongoing one on one relationship between coach and player. Some players can be there own coach.

The FEEL once you are in the pattern is very similar and reproducible.

If the teacher knows the pattern and the expected/necessary results (ball flight), then the feel cues can be applied well.


Here is an example of a reproducible feel cue with wide application for overhand throw:

"keep the elbow up".

That can also be applied to learning MLB swing pattern to help eliminate "drag". What happens in both cases can be objectively described in arm action sequence terms.

SO be careful applying cues if you do not know what the pattern feels like yourself.
 
Jul 17, 2008
67
0
If you can throw, you can hit.

Then you'd think the average MLB pitcher would have swing mechanics that looked pretty good. Might struggle with timing, etc., because after all, most haven't swung the bat all THAT much since high school. But if the PATTERN was absolute and natural, wouldn't they demonstrate it?

Of course, most don't. Most of their swings look like crap.

And I'm still struggling with how your pattern observations make any sense whatsoever for the RH thrower / LH hitter. I really don't get that. An awful lot of those guys do pretty well, though.



If the teacher knows the pattern and the expected/necessary results (ball flight), then the feel cues can be applied well.

Not one in 100 does - as YOU define the pattern. Actually, I wouldn't put the percentage too much higher by my own definition. Therein is the problem. The responsibility of the instructional MATERIAL (if it is geared at the mass market) is to take this into account. Most kids who buy Epstein, RVP, Englishby aren't using it in conjunction w/ an instructor. They are using it w/ their mom or dad. And AGAIN, when they hear a cue like "skip a rock," they AREN'T going to interpret it. They will SKIP A ROCK.

Is your failure to acknowledge this because you actually doubt it?

How many tapes has Epstein sold? 100K, maybe? (I pick him as an example only because he appears to be the mass market leader.) How many of those kids are interpreting his cues through the filter of an Epstein certified instructor? Maybe 500? Where is the responsibility for the other 99%? Same for the other hitting guys. If you are going to use cues in your instruction, they HAVE to make sense in the frame of reference of the typical patron of the materials. If not, it IS a crappy cue.



SO be careful applying cues if you do not know what the pattern feels like yourself.

Ok, so by your estimation (extrapolating from your previous posts), there are about 5 female hitters in the country who are qualified to instruct. I think Bustos actually DOES (she coaches a Gold team, anyway). Big country, though. Lots of hitters looking for instruction. As I acknowledged above, there are a lot of bad instructors out there. Male AND female. But there are more than a handful of good female instructors. And so I personally find your assessment of the female hitter (and eventual instructor) a little demeaning. Hopefully, that is not your intent.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top