Does the riseball really rise???

[BoardMember]

In order to determine whether an object is simply "slanting upwards" or "rising of it's intended plane" one must first understand RISE AND RUN rates......

For example, a rise and run rate of 1:12 means for every 12 units of distance, there is 1 unit of rise.

Or easier stated for example, every 12 inches of lenth (run) there is 1 inch of rise (slant). This is a 1:12 rise/run.

The above formula would represent a "constant" rise/run" rate. Or "pure slant".

For those interested, Sarah's rise/run rate is NOT constant. It increases in rise/run as the ball travels further. This increasing rise/run indicates a rise off the intended plane.

No much, but it is there.........And it IS a fact.......

Of course it is falling into the hitting zone however...........

 

[Rick Pauly]

Board Member
I'm confused and curious about your rise/run description-----would this not create a straight line with an upward angle?

Where in the video did the ball "jump" at a greater angle than this rise/run you described?

Rick Pauly

 

[Rick Pauly]

Rick

I am not taking sides on this debate, just being devil's advocate. So I'm not trying to argue either way. Quite frankly, I don't mind what someone believes, regardless of their opinion. All that I ask is that someone who does this experiment have a true, genuine backspin on the ball. To date, I've not seen that. I have seen the video of Sarah and her demonstration of it but, I was not catching to see/identify the spin. I am well aware of your playing career and history in the game (but wasn't aware of all those strike outs, ha ha) so, I'm sorry if my "doubt" on this sounds as though I don't trust you. I sincerely don't mean it that way. In the same capacity that people want to see the video of a riseball, I want to see all the elements in the equation for my own eyes. I've just seen too many cases of people using someone with incorrect spin (due to mechanical flaws or something else) or someone who's only caught their 12 year old daughter as an example of why this "CANNOT" happen. I had an extensive conversation with Mike White about this subject once and we (in a drunken stupor) decided that we should get the Mythbusters on the case. It's hard to argue with that guy in the hat. As I've written in my monthly column/newsletter several times, I truly believe people get poisoned by what they hear the ESPN announcers say on TV. ANYTHING that is high, they call a riseball. If it's low, it's a drop. Inside is a screw and outside is a curve. I cannot even watch this on TV because I get ill listening to it.

I'm not sure what Mark means by video being producable. I'm too much of a cynic to think that any video made (if this is possible) would be accepted and not called a fake. It could be alleged that I'd fake such a video for gain.

Having said that, my contract with my video production company is over now leaving me able to make such a video for the first time....

I do know that Doug Gillis does a demonstration with this pitch involving ropes and a background that shows the traction of the ball. I'll ask him if this is on video or something he only does in person, like myself.

BTW... is Sarah interested in going to NZ this winter?

Bill

Sarah is the newly hired Pitching Coach at the College of Charleston so she'll be pretty busy with that new venture.

 

[BoardMember]

Board Member
I'm confused and curious about your rise/run description-----would this not create a straight line with an upward angle?

Where in the video did the ball "jump" at a greater angle than this rise/run you described?

Rick Pauly

Rick, as I explained above, a constant rise/run rate is a pure slant.

Sarah's rise is definately NOT a constant rise/run rate and NOT a pure slant.

If you'd like, I'll post a few some clips of Sarah that might open some eyes.

 

[Rick Pauly]

Board Member
Ok to post. Definitely curious.
Rick

 

[Rick Pauly]

Bill,

No one in their right mind would argue with a word you wrote. The disagreement comes from the whackos who INSIST that the riseball 'jumps' or 'hops' as it gets close to the plate!

Rick,

I would put the factors in this order:

1) Release angle (no spin or speed can overcome a poor release angle)
2) Speed (for the reason you noted)
3) Seam Orientation (must use the big, fat seams )
4) Spin rate (the more RPM's the better)
5) Spin Directional Orientation (I have this lower than you because most pitchers won't reach 12/6)

Keith

Hi Keith
It's pretty tough to select #1 or #2---kind of like which came first, the chicken or the egg.

My rationale for speed being #1 is that without reasonable speed any upward release angle will change quickly to a downward angle. To your point, release angle is extremely critical to the effectiveness or the ability to direct the ball to finish in the zone. Every pitch finishing in the strike zone must have upward release angle so yes, it is very important.

Regardless of our slight difference here, isn't it amazing the criteria that a pitcher needs to incorporate to throw a respectable pitch? I marvel at the "Dad's" or unknowing spectators that can't understand why Susie can't throw her riseball for a strike without it getting hit out of the park.

Relative to your #3 and #5---I've done a ton of lessons/observations/first hand viewing from the catching position since I started using the Rev Fire. It has convinced me that spin orientation is much more important than seam orientation. Seam orientation is "the icing on the cake" relative to ball movement. More so on the dropball than on the riseball though.

Anyhow, great discussion that I hope can generate some more input.

Rick

 

[Ken Krause]

I've been wondering lately if the effectiveness of the pitch is because the hitter assumes the pitch will go down, like most others. Maybe it's the delivery that fools, or maybe it doesn't start up right away and the hitter is fooled into thinking it will be lower than it is.

The reason I'm thinking that is despite the fact the pitch starts moving upward and then begins to fall, hitters swing under it. If they can see it moving up from the start they should be following it up. If it starts upward then stops moving upward, and the hitter is following the pitch up, if anything they should swing over it, shouldn't they?

But they don't. They swing under it. There's something to the angle. I'd look more at the beginning than the end for clues.

 

[halskinner]

Hi Ken.

The travel time from the pitcher's hand to the hit zone is normally around 4/10 of a second.

They see it coming and they see it coming on an upwards angle. At around the halfway point of travel they must decide if they are going to swing or not and they have to start that swing.

Before they start their swing, in the first 2/10th of a second, or so, they must also decide if that ball coming up at them is going to stay in the strike zone and get called for a strike or if it is going to climb so high it will be called a ball and they should NOT swing at it.

THEY ARE FORCED TO WATCH THE BALL TRAVEL and that takes time they do not have. They might be good but they aint Superman! It is a matter of time, simple as that. The faster you can throw it, the less time they have to see what they have to, decide on what to do AND do that.

If a pitcher can make a batter think about every pitch they see, the pitcher owns them!

 

[Mark H]

Hi Ken.

The travel time from the pitcher's hand to the hit zone is normally around 4/10 of a second.

They see it coming and they see it coming on an upwards angle. At around the halfway point of travel they must decide if they are going to swing or not and they have to start that swing.

Before they start their swing, in the first 2/10th of a second, or so, they must also decide if that ball coming up at them is going to stay in the strike zone and get called for a strike or if it is going to climb so high it will be called a ball and they should NOT swing at it.

THEY ARE FORCED TO WATCH THE BALL TRAVEL and that takes time they do not have. They might be good but they aint Superman! It is a matter of time, simple as that. The faster you can throw it, the less time they have to see what they have to, decide on what to do AND do that.

If a pitcher can make a batter think about every pitch they see, the pitcher owns them!

Yes, which all points out the absolute necessity of a swing with the minimum time possible from decision to contact while still having reasonable bat speed.

 

[bigdaddy]

Hi Rick,

I concede that your practical experience trumps my theoretical experience!

My thinking was...a smooth ball wouldn't break at all based on spin. The only reason spin causes break IS because the ball has seams.

Keith