Ok, so I have faced or caught some of the best pitchers in Michigan/Indiana/Canada/US. Planger, Sabin, Gillis, Braunchard,Feiner, Boyd, Bender to name a few. A properly thrown rise sure looks like it rises. Bill had a good analogy of the plane taking off. If the spin is right when the speed hits the mark it jumps. My trained owl eyes says it jumps! You can't get more scientific than that! I think most girls have inappropriate spin but even though it's not exactly right it's still getting hitters out.
Does the riseball really rise???
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Seeing is Believing??????
The existence of optical illusions is well documented and an accepted phenomenon. Just because you 'see' something doesn't make it true. Some light might be shed on this controversy with an explanation of the nature of perception, visual perception in particular.
Light enters the eye where it strikes the retina and is converted to electrical impulses which travel to the brain. The brain then interprets the impulses and based on previous experience creates/constructs a picture. This picture is then projected and 'experienced as the 'real world'. For instance, you are looking at this computer screen and believe it to be the actual screen as it exists in the real world. Not so, you are actually 'seeing' a created/constructed image. Remember the light from the screen was converted to electrical impulses. Now apply this to the act of catching or hitting a thrown ball. The light from the ball is converted to electrical impulses which are used by the brain to construct an image. This image is created based on past experience. Normally the ball, due to the influence of gravity, will 'fall' a certain amount. The brain projects what the ball will do and where it will be. When you put your glove up, or start to swing the bat you do so with an idea of where the ball is going and where it will be at contact (with either the glove or the bat). When a good riseball is not where it is supposed to be brain corrects it's projection and the ball appears to have 'hopped'. So, just because you 'see' or perceive that the ball has 'hopped' doesn't make it so. Now you might think that this is just so much scientific BS but the description of visual perception is technically accurate.
I find it interesting that there a good number of skilled pitchers with great riseballs, yet none of them can seem to find the time to have their riseball video taped so that they can prove their point.
The existence of optical illusions is well documented and an accepted phenomenon. Just because you 'see' something doesn't make it true. Some light might be shed on this controversy with an explanation of the nature of perception, visual perception in particular.
Light enters the eye where it strikes the retina and is converted to electrical impulses which travel to the brain. The brain then interprets the impulses and based on previous experience creates/constructs a picture. This picture is then projected and 'experienced as the 'real world'. For instance, you are looking at this computer screen and believe it to be the actual screen as it exists in the real world. Not so, you are actually 'seeing' a created/constructed image. Remember the light from the screen was converted to electrical impulses. Now apply this to the act of catching or hitting a thrown ball. The light from the ball is converted to electrical impulses which are used by the brain to construct an image. This image is created based on past experience. Normally the ball, due to the influence of gravity, will 'fall' a certain amount. The brain projects what the ball will do and where it will be. When you put your glove up, or start to swing the bat you do so with an idea of where the ball is going and where it will be at contact (with either the glove or the bat). When a good riseball is not where it is supposed to be brain corrects it's projection and the ball appears to have 'hopped'. So, just because you 'see' or perceive that the ball has 'hopped' doesn't make it so. Now you might think that this is just so much scientific BS but the description of visual perception is technically accurate.
I find it interesting that there a good number of skilled pitchers with great riseballs, yet none of them can seem to find the time to have their riseball video taped so that they can prove their point.
halskinner
Banned
- May 7, 2008
- 2,658
- 0
HAHAHA. Tell ya what, my strike out record stands. You pull up my records and then I will rest my case. Many years ago I proved myself and the riseball, proved it every time I stepped into the circle
. Just too old and beat up to do it anymore.Believe what you want.
Not if it's reproducible. In any case, I'd love to just see one. I'm a romantic who wants to believe it curves upward. I just need some help.
This was in fact the conclusion of the last scholarly study of the Pauly video that Scott based his study on. The ball, a few feet after release, climbed upward from it's original trajectory but flattened out and began to drop from it's original trajectory long before the plate. In the end, as you allude to, perception is reality in terms of being effective.
I'd have to see video of that too.
HAHAHA. Tell ya what, my strike out record stands. You pull up my records and then I will rest my case. Many years ago I proved myself and the riseball, proved it every time I stepped into the circle
Believe what you want.
I certainly wouldn't question the efficacy of a well thrown and placed riseball nor would I question your riseball back in the day. I don't think anyone does or would. That's not the point. I would prefer to see someone come up with video evidence that the ball is doing what my eyes say it is doing. Just hasn't happened yet.
Hal/Bill
I've seen the best, tried to hit and catch the best riseballs in the mens game (back in the day). Yeah they had the "jumping" illusion.
Certainly, I was of the same mindset you two are currently at----but not anymore.
I'm with Mark here----I want to see a riseball that actually increases from its originally thrown angle. It would really help me justify way to many K's I still recall.
I really don't understand why you would rather argue this point versus just presenting a profile video of the "jumping" riseball you refer to. You could really shut up a lot of people not to mention enhancing your own credibility.
Hal----what is different about a "cut" riseball that keeps it from "jumping".
I've seen the best, tried to hit and catch the best riseballs in the mens game (back in the day). Yeah they had the "jumping" illusion.
Certainly, I was of the same mindset you two are currently at----but not anymore.
I'm with Mark here----I want to see a riseball that actually increases from its originally thrown angle. It would really help me justify way to many K's I still recall.
I really don't understand why you would rather argue this point versus just presenting a profile video of the "jumping" riseball you refer to. You could really shut up a lot of people not to mention enhancing your own credibility.
Hal----what is different about a "cut" riseball that keeps it from "jumping".
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,379
- 113
Rick
I am not taking sides on this debate, just being devil's advocate. So I'm not trying to argue either way. Quite frankly, I don't mind what someone believes, regardless of their opinion. All that I ask is that someone who does this experiment have a true, genuine backspin on the ball. To date, I've not seen that. I have seen the video of Sarah and her demonstration of it but, I was not catching to see/identify the spin. I am well aware of your playing career and history in the game (but wasn't aware of all those strike outs, ha ha) so, I'm sorry if my "doubt" on this sounds as though I don't trust you. I sincerely don't mean it that way. In the same capacity that people want to see the video of a riseball, I want to see all the elements in the equation for my own eyes. I've just seen too many cases of people using someone with incorrect spin (due to mechanical flaws or something else) or someone who's only caught their 12 year old daughter as an example of why this "CANNOT" happen. I had an extensive conversation with Mike White about this subject once and we (in a drunken stupor) decided that we should get the Mythbusters on the case. It's hard to argue with that guy in the hat. As I've written in my monthly column/newsletter several times, I truly believe people get poisoned by what they hear the ESPN announcers say on TV. ANYTHING that is high, they call a riseball. If it's low, it's a drop. Inside is a screw and outside is a curve. I cannot even watch this on TV because I get ill listening to it.
I'm not sure what Mark means by video being producable. I'm too much of a cynic to think that any video made (if this is possible) would be accepted and not called a fake. It could be alleged that I'd fake such a video for gain.
Having said that, my contract with my video production company is over now leaving me able to make such a video for the first time....
I do know that Doug Gillis does a demonstration with this pitch involving ropes and a background that shows the traction of the ball. I'll ask him if this is on video or something he only does in person, like myself.
BTW... is Sarah interested in going to NZ this winter?
Bill
I am not taking sides on this debate, just being devil's advocate. So I'm not trying to argue either way. Quite frankly, I don't mind what someone believes, regardless of their opinion. All that I ask is that someone who does this experiment have a true, genuine backspin on the ball. To date, I've not seen that. I have seen the video of Sarah and her demonstration of it but, I was not catching to see/identify the spin. I am well aware of your playing career and history in the game (but wasn't aware of all those strike outs, ha ha) so, I'm sorry if my "doubt" on this sounds as though I don't trust you. I sincerely don't mean it that way. In the same capacity that people want to see the video of a riseball, I want to see all the elements in the equation for my own eyes. I've just seen too many cases of people using someone with incorrect spin (due to mechanical flaws or something else) or someone who's only caught their 12 year old daughter as an example of why this "CANNOT" happen. I had an extensive conversation with Mike White about this subject once and we (in a drunken stupor) decided that we should get the Mythbusters on the case. It's hard to argue with that guy in the hat. As I've written in my monthly column/newsletter several times, I truly believe people get poisoned by what they hear the ESPN announcers say on TV. ANYTHING that is high, they call a riseball. If it's low, it's a drop. Inside is a screw and outside is a curve. I cannot even watch this on TV because I get ill listening to it.
I'm not sure what Mark means by video being producable. I'm too much of a cynic to think that any video made (if this is possible) would be accepted and not called a fake. It could be alleged that I'd fake such a video for gain.
Having said that, my contract with my video production company is over now leaving me able to make such a video for the first time....
I do know that Doug Gillis does a demonstration with this pitch involving ropes and a background that shows the traction of the ball. I'll ask him if this is on video or something he only does in person, like myself.
BTW... is Sarah interested in going to NZ this winter?
Bill
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,379
- 113
Oh yea, I don't want to speak for Hal on this but... I'm guessing a 'cut' riseball is thrown with a pronounced sidespin to make the ball go UP and AWAY instead of just trying to make it go 'straight up'. It's called different things in different parts of the country, it must be called a cut rise in Hal's neck of the woods.
Bill
Bill
