Softball Swing vs. Baseball Swing - 2

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Jul 14, 2008
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Posey, no releation to Briana I'm guessing. Anyway, you said something I'd like to discuss:

When I get back from dinner, I'd like to ask a few questions regarding the "coaching aspect" of the above........And the difference between feeling it naturally by the time your 20, and teaching younger players HOW to feel it, and the value in knowing what really happens when trying to help these players "feel it".........Is it important as an instructor to know more then what it feels like, but why and how it happens and how to allow it to happen???

Food for thought for a later conversation.........

A quick example:
Mendoza say's she "locks in her hips" is what was said. If you saw a player opening her hips would you bark: "Keep those hips closed"!

Further, would you insist "Keep those hips closed" because Jess told you that's what she does? After all, she is one of the best.......

As a coach, having an intimate knowledge of what happens within a normal range of a specific skill, and MORE IMPORTANLY WHY it happens, allows the coach, and utimately the hitter(in this case) to progress more rapidly within that specific skill by opening doors that nomally are confined to "what is supposed to be correct", or "what the experts say, even though is isn't what they do"........

In the case of the hips opening, your initial impression and current knowledge level of the skill caused you to "react negetively" to my assertion that the hips open into plant. My intention wasn't to show you up. However it was to show you somthing.......

At that point, I saw an opportunity to help "expand" your knowledge base by first showing you that ALL the best players in the world do it. Almost always. And then enter into a discussion as to why they do it, and how it benifits the sequence.

The bottom line was to expand your ability to assess a particular movement, and whether that movement was "within the norm" when coaching a hitter, and whether it is a benefit, or detriment to the sequence.

With that knowledge, you may be less inclined to "stick to the book" so to speak when coaching, which actually allows for a more natural learning condition/environment.

The other benefit of deeper sequence learning is that you can actually cause a hitter to exibit a "better pattern" with a deeper understanding.

For example, what if you had a hitter who is constantly getting beat on the inside AND keeps the hips square into plant. However, knowing in your mind that NO GOOD COACHES teach opening the hips into plant, you shy away from intruducing that move that actually is within the normal range of the sequence. Instead you INSIST that the hands just aren't being quick enough.

Of couse, that could possibly damage the hitters ability of hit off speed and outside pitches, which would open an entirely NEW can of worms.

I guess I could've said ALL of this in the begining, but it's a lot to say. I personally get lost and bored in LONG DIATRIBES regarding the subject........:)
 
May 7, 2008
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San Rafael, Ca
Board member -

Those are very good questions about throwing. Thanks.

Perhaps we could put up video of a high level throw in another thread and discuss the high level sequence.

That would then provide a nice foundation for demonstrating how this throwing pattern is similar to the MLB hitting pattern. As Candrea says, if you can thorw, you can hit, BUT this similarity applies mainly to the 2 plane type swings not the "PCRW" blueprint/1 plane pattern.
 
Jul 14, 2008
1,800
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This is a great idea Tom. Why don't you start a new throwing vs. hitting thread and put of one your high level students exibiting a high level throw and we'll go though it.......:)

Board member -

Those are very good questions about throwing. Thanks.

Perhaps we could put up video of a high level throw in another thread and discuss the high level seuence.

That would then provide a nice foundation for demontstrating how this throwing pattern is similar to the MLB hitting pattern. As Candre says, if you can thorw, you can hit, BUT this similarity applies mainly to the 2 plane type swings not the "PCRW" blueprint/1 plane pattern.
 
May 7, 2008
977
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San Rafael, Ca
hitdr -

I think the most accessible info on the net that I largely agree with is Mike Epstein's info. Not entirely "scientifically" correct, but as correct and complete as any description in the real world.

Here is the link for the available descriptions:

Mike and Mick

I have learned over the years the most from comparing and contrasting similar skills and find the overhand throw, golf swing, and hitting swing really benefit from being studied and performed together.

Boardmember is an excellent fastpitch pitching coach, and there is some good carryover there as well.

Overall, I think the golf approach to learning the swing is the best, best described by Hardy in his books PLANE TRUTH FOR GOLFERS, and PLANE TRUTH - MASTER'S CLASS.

In baseball/fastpitch, I think it is important to learn overhand throw and hitting swing together early.

The basic thrust of Hardy's golf apporach is that there are 2 "pure" swing patterns, and the purer your swing sequence is, the more timing error leeway you have so the more effective and consistent your swing is.

The more "in position" you are, the better you do over time. The more you add difficult to control aspects, the more "out of position" you are and the less easy it becomes to compensate and still time good contact.

In hitting as best described by Williams, you need to use the 2 plane type pattern where the swing plane is lined up as well as possible with the trajectory of the pitch. This means a good pitch is about the adjustment you make that puts you "in position" as well as possible to execute a well timed/squared contact.

In hitting, the primary requirement is adequately timed swing so the adjustment needs to have a combination of well lined up swing plane AND quick acceleration that starts well behind the batter in the swing plane (see Mankin "plt" and "tht" above). Mankin also describes this nicely as "early batspeed". The MLB swing keeps the hands back as long as possible to maximize read time while the body coils and adjustment starts. Then there is a quick last stretch of the torso and firing of the bat as well timed and lined up as possible.

Williams describes the swing in terms of the contact zone as always a "slight upswing", level to the ball (lined up plane) with top hand wrist still cocked,just starting to uncock through contact (sign of good connection to unloading torso with no deceleration before contact, max batspeed at contact makes for minimal timing error).

Williams and Epstein describe the other key requirments as get a good pitch to hit, start on time, hips lead hands, adjust plane to pitch, hands stay in.

The adjustment approach preferred by Epstein is to based on a short range of swing radiuses (radii) which makes for a quick swing that permits bellying up to the plate.

For hitting heat with power, the plan is to look in or out and adjust up down on fly.

Up down adjustment is primarily related to how hips/weight shift react with shoulder tilt action, hips working within limits set by foot/leg action and foot/leg action slaved to arm/hand/bat/barrell action. This is a 2 plane pattern with upper and lower body actions controlled/coordinated by upper body to then merge/blend to adjust/completeload/unload.

Bat starts turning/uncocking as you open the front leg/hips into toe touch (you can keep the front foot/hip nmore closed/longer/even past toe touch by using a longer radius off the plate swing), this is "opening"/loading/coiling, not the active firing of hips which in this thread we are referring to as "rotation").

When GO decision is made based on what is anticipated and read, the shoulders tilt slaved to the hands turning the barrell to set the axis more upright for high ball or staying more leaned back for low ball.

This way, the depth of contact/timing is about the same for high vs low.

The high ball involves a quicker/shorter swing radius but takes more time to get the axis forward/upright vs the longer low ball swing that starts earlier as axis does not need to get more upright.

Timing for out vs in location is too diferent to cover the whole plate by power swing with a good pitcher, so better to look in or out or shorten up if the situation demands.

If you get offspeed, you can continue/prolong the "rubberbandwinding" into toe touch (uncoking bat/"opening front leg/hips), sit on back leg and keep axis leaned back as long as possible, but eventually you will get stuck out on front foot and just have to make an emergency swing or take.

This type of swing becomes longer/more loopy and uppercutting, BUT that is fine because that plane/trajectory matches offspeed stuff.

Note in addition to describing the plane matching spatially as level to the pitch, Williams also explains that the JOYSPOT is best exposed when contact is 15 degrees before or 30 degrees after perpendicular which is a good expression of the timing element involved here since the bat is accelerating/picking up speed during this slice of the swing plane which then puts contact in the middle of the timing window even though it is not in the middle of the spatial window.

Also, better late than early in Williams opinion, and if you miss, you usually miss low (if you are in the high level pattern/envelope) so raise your sites if you are having trouble catching up.

Early means humpback liner.

Late means underspin flyball.



POSEY:

Any chance you can ask Finch about her experience with Bonds or get a link to her THIS WEEK IN BASEBALL feature with Barry.

Barry likes to get to a punching position and swing down and catch the ball on the bat and be top hand dominant.

But since video does not show he does this, maybe he's just uninformed.

?right.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
Boardmember -

Any old high level thrower will suffice because the natural pattern is the same. Same reason MLB hitters all look so similar at footplant as emphasized first and formost by Lau Sr.

I think your idea of limiting name dropping is a good one.
 
May 12, 2008
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Epstein's drills promote a weight shift from front to back rather than back to front thus promoting bug squishing to mention one problem. As always, compare anything anyone teaches about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world.
 
May 12, 2008
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I should add, though Tom will disagree for reasons that could be discussed endlessly, I suggest the best information will be found on Englishbeyhitting.com . You can register on the public side and read more than you have time for including discussion of video clips of young hitters.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
Mark brings up a good point.

no one's system is complete. Here is a recent discussion along those lines concerning Epstein:

Epstein Drills - Baseball Fever

As the moderator "Jake" recommends, why not go to the source ?

One of the nice things about Epstein is that he has a nice support forum that addresses (and has addressed) this question and all others concerning using his apporach, see

Mike Epstein Hitting Support Forum

The board has been inactive for a while, in part because over the years most of the questions have been repetaedly asked and answerred. This is a nice archive for that info.



As well as certified instructors throughout the country like Sparky Parker and Cally Jr (see first link) that have good success with the general approach.
 
May 27, 2008
20
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Not to link the two threads but I would like see a few people, namely the ones that chase each from board to board arguing essentially the same points address -

There are a lot of discussions on which hitting techniques is the best. There is no question that a good hitting technique is a key performance factor.

However, it's only ONE of several factors that makes up a good hitter. Let's start a list of what makes a good hitter.

Here is my list:

1) Good hand-eye coordination
2) Tracking ability and focus
3) Confidence
4) Mechanics
5) Decision-making ability (to swing or not to swing)
6) Experience
7) Strength and power
8) Composure

So, mechanics is ONLY one of the factors. I think most hitting specialists or gurus put too much emphasis on technique and tend to forget other aspects of hitting.

Are they good at:


- Teaching and training tracking and visual abilities?
- Fostering confidence?
- Training key mental skills (focus, blocking distraction)?
- Developing strength and power?
- Etc.

There are all important aspects of hitting performance and a good hitting coach can train all of these.

While there is a lot of emphasis on hitting mechanics and while it is a very important part of hitting success, I believe it is a bit overrated.

From experience, too much work on the technical aspects of hitting sometimes makes hitters think too much. And you know what happens when a hitter thinks too much - nothing good happens.

You have to let the hitter see the ball, hit the ball with confidence and not having to think too much about it.

Most great hitters will tell you hitting is anywhere between 50 and 90% mental.
 
May 27, 2008
20
0
As an aside for Tom -

John Tschida UST, probably one the top 10 coaches in the U.S. or even the world is a very strong proponent of integrating the golf and baseball swing.
 

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