Rotational Hitting

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May 7, 2008
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San Rafael, Ca
Thanks to Marc and Ken for the nice discussion board.

Go away for a month or two and some great discussion breaks out.

I have spent a long time trying to make sense out of all these different positions, and my conclusion is that while there are apples and oranges being discussed, the varieties of the swing are not too numerous to be reconciled given an adequate underlying framework of assumptions.

I agree that it is very important to look at how the hitting swing resembles other skills, especially overhand or sidearm throw and golf.

The complexity and confusion and info in golf is WAY more massive and complicated than hitting, HOWEVER, in my opinion, there has recently been a breakthrough in understanding all golf info and this same approach can be applied to hitting.

nyman has made some very good observations, one of which is that scap/shoulder action is very important to understanding swinging and throwing regardless of how conscious the feel of scap action is. beyond this, the nyman scap info gets pretty confusing when the details of how you load and unload the sacps get discussed. how it carries over from throwing to hitting is particularly problematic/ignored in the nyman based swing info.

Jim Hardy in golf has figured out what this fundamental importance is and this likewise applies to hitting in my opinion, involving how the scaps function.

In golf and hitting, the physics of all high level swings is as described by mark and slapper here which is connection to rotation and conservation of momentum.

at a more defined physics level, there is more disagreement.

my opinion is that the best underlying model for ALL ''rotational" connected swings (hitting and golf) where the whole body is used to develop and transfer momentum effectively is the empirical model developed to explain all high level golf swings by t. jorgensen the late author of PHYSICS OF GOLF.

ALL HIGH LEVEL SWINGS CAN BE MODELED BY A BLEND OF 3 FACTORS - FORWARD MOMENTUM OF THE BODY, TORSO TORQUE (SPINAL AXIS) AND HANDLE TORQUE(AXIS BETWEEN HANDS).

For a summary of jorgensen, see:

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swing1.php?ref=


This explains that for golf, there is not one, but 2 different 'NATURAL PATTERNS' that are effective, and, for consistency/minimal error, many aspects of the patterns are opposed and should NOT be mixed.

The fundamental determinant of pattern is how the upper limbs are connected to the body, or said another way, how the scaps function.

in golf, there are 2 and only 2 ideal patterns which should be mixed as little as possible:

1 - single plane swing - feels like swinging around - arms swing around body as body turns. this is like the swing posey and hit24 do NOT like. it works in golf because there is unlimited reaction time which allows you to take as big a "counterrotated" backswing as you like. in hitting, this makes you spin/pull off ball/fly open when you shorten the backswing because you have to shorten the swing to deal with limited reaction time. in "PCR" this is compensated for by handpath hook and turning back knee into front to let hips turn faster.

2 - the 2 plane swing - feels like swinging down - hips and arms - arms swing up and down synched with body turning back and forth. this is much more (but not entirely) like the swing posey and 24 and candrea and slaught describe which is similar to overhand/sidearm throwing action.

In this case, the club/bat is swung in a DIFFERENT (second) plane from the level turn of the hips. This (along with neg/pos moves/weight shift) is what 24 and Posey are thinking of as "linear" motions. when the bat is swung down and the hips turn level in a different plane, the result is to stretch/coil the torso which creates the rotational loading of the body, sometimes referred to as creating "resistance" with the upper body.

from link above, Hardy summarizing golf experience:

====

"Hardy's Theory Based On 'Plane' Concepts
The Arizona Republic
Golfers usually turn to club pros when they need help with their swing, but where do the pros go when they need help in teaching?

In growing numbers, they are sitting at the feet of Jim Hardy, a former PGA Tour pro whose "plane and simple" theory might provide the answer to why most golfers struggle to improve.

After nearly 30 years of studying hundreds of golf swings and observing dozens of instructors, the swing guru from Houston has adopted the theory that all golfers use a one-plane or a two-plane swing - and that the concepts of those two don't mix.

"You can use either one and you can be successful with either one, as long as you don't mix and match," Hardy said. "The elements are not compatible and, as a result, there are probably more people being hurt by instruction than at any time in history.

"If you look at guys like Seve Ballesteros, Ian Baker-Finch, Chip Beck and David Duval - they have been taught right out of their business. They have lost their game. Duval was the No. 1 player in the world, and he didn't just fall out of bed one day and forget how to play. What happened is he has mixed two-plane issues with a one-plane swing."

=====

By applying this simple pattern filter, Hardy has been able to sort virtually ALL golf info into 3 categories that enable understanding - info belonging to the single plane swing, info belonging to the 2 plane swing and useless information.

With regard to the 'rotational vs linear' debate, I prefer the distinction that Hardy makes between "side-on" (high level rotational) vs "online"
(linear) skills which is why walking in a straight line really is NOT so much like swinging. but getting sideways and doing the karaoke or sideways walkup drill IS like the swing 24 likes.

In the first part of this video. Hardy summarizes things, including making the side-on vs on line distinction and consistency for cats vs dogs,etc:

The swing that mark is explaining on the one hand is an entirely different pattern/scap function from the one posey and 24 are describing.

for example, mark's swing requires a bend over and stick butt out posture. this provides good support for using shoulder turn to turn the bat, but is nothng like the overhand/sidearm throw action.

The posey type swing requires more upright posture and more back and forth neg and positive move to enable an entirely different action where the lower body will slave/respond to the upper body rather than require conscius emphasis on hip turn/lower body etc.

If you mix these incompatible pattern specifics, you mess things up. bending over and sticking your butt out prevents synching upper and lower body in the 2 plane type action.

NOW, obviously the high level MLB type swing is not the same as the 2 plane golf swing. it consists of yet another NATURAL PATTERN further along spectrum away from the single plane action, closer to the 2 plane golf swing.

in this 2 plane baseball/MLB hitting pattern, the main determinant is TILTING of the scaps. Consciously, this is controlled with the hands that torque the handle to create a center of rotation between the hands that is accelerated by shoulder TILT which turns the bathead in a secod plane opposing/resisting the level turn of the hips.

Feel is swing down, hips and hands.

The preparatory arm action is very similar to overhand/sidearm throw.

The actual unloading/throw is by tilting the scaps and twisting the forearms to accelerate the bathead that is has already started to turn between the hands (by the arm action of the overhand/sidearm throw) to create a late adjustable stretch of the torso to match bathead trajectory to ball flight.

This is what gives the "feel' that barry bonds describes (very high level pattern before or after chemical enhancement) as swing down/get to punching position/meet my top hand.

Too bad that TWIB segmant with Jennie Finch and Barry is no longer available. Here is another quick barry clip:

http://www.swingbuster.com/images/Barry Bonds Clip.rm


This is also what Williams is describing in SCIENCE OF HITTING.

This may sound complicated, but i believe it is as simple as possible a framework for making sense out of all the claims/descriptions you hear.

The other necessary component besides understanding the 3 competing NATURAL high level body patterns is, in the case of baseball, understanding the specifics of throwing arm action that carry over to the swing. Arm action in throwing is well described by ron wolforth and nyman. The missing piece here that is hard to find is how arm action synchs upper and lower body loading which is best described in the hard to find video BIOMECHANICBASEBALL by jeff hodge.

As the gurus say, it's as simple and hard as that.

What this model does is allow you to better understand and promote rather than inhibit the NATURAL PATTERN.
 
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May 12, 2008
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If anyone reads all the way through this and finds something they like please point it out to me. I can't read all the way through Tom's stuff anymore.
 
Jun 4, 2008
81
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Anaheim Ca.
I would have to believe then the disortation of Tom's whole book he published was a lot of major league players talk about having independent hands when they hit which would signify 2 plane type of swing as Tom was talking about. The hands must get the body on plane.
 
May 12, 2008
2,214
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24,

Are you discussing two plane swings as a loading pattern moving from out of plane to in plane around the start of shoulder rotation or are you talking about two plane as in the plane of shoulder rotation is substantially different than the swing plane? IOW, stand up straighter and swing down with the arms to hit the low pitch.

And please describe what you mean by "The hands must get the body on plane.". If you are talking swing thoughts, fine whatever works for a hitter in terms of swing thoughts. Obviously the hands go whereever the body and arms move them so I'm curious about your thoughts on this.
 
Jun 4, 2008
81
0
Anaheim Ca.
I'm refering to the hands,arms and shoulders getting on plane because of the hitters perception of where contact of the ball will occur.Rotation to contact will occur efficently if the hitter trustes where his hands arms lead him or her. Hands must work independantly directionally to adjust in afraction of a second.
 
May 12, 2008
2,214
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I'm refering to the hands,arms and shoulders getting on plane because of the hitters perception of where contact of the ball will occur..

Well sure. To paraphrase a friend of mine. What gets me on plane with the pitch? My brain. :)


Rotation to contact will occur efficently if the hitter trustes where his hands arms lead him or her..

Well that works till it doesn't work. I think feel and swing thoughts are individual to a hitter. Certainly the goal is automaticity-being able to do it without thinking and trust whatever the hitter trusts to let it happen. Some think of the hands and knowing where they are in space. Some think of and want to know where their barrel is in space. I've got no quibble with any of those ways of thinking about it. Whatever works for a hitter.



Hands must work independantly directionally to adjust in afraction of a second.

Well given the muscle mass available in the lower arms and hands and given the amount of energy needed to move a bat I'm not too keen on this idea of adjusting, late or otherwise, the bat with the hands/wrists in fractions of a second. What I see in non fooled swings of elite hitters is a remarkably consistent and common relationship between the shoulder rotation plane and the swing plane from launch through contact. I think the hands and arms play a very important part in terms of their maintaining stability while transferring the energy of the rotating torso to the bat. How does this all fit in with your independent hands thoughts 24? http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s
 
Jul 3, 2008
1
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Mark H,

I've been reading this thread and following the whole time and I must say that you are clueless! All of these people have proven you to be wrong and you continue to argue with them. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
 
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