Throwing

[FiveFrameSwing]

Below ... pretty much the opposite of "ball to the wall".

 

[redhotcoach]

If a girl is bringing her back leg through with her throwing arm, almost in unison, what is she doing and what is the cure?

That's the best way I can describe what this girl is doing, it's hard for me to even emulate it myself or know where to start with her (though we may just start from scratch, I'd like to understand better what/why she's doing).

She's kind of like the "before" picture early in this thread on the bottom half, but with a better upper half, ie, she starts ok, takes the ball away ok, but at some point wrong-foots it and gets out of sequence.

TKS

Wow.
My wife says she thinks the before video from tewks is a put on. She says no one throws like that without trying hard to look bad. She does have a point in "why is she throwing at the ground 10 feet in front of her?"

 

[Mr T]

Wow.
My wife says she thinks the before video from tewks is a put on. She says no one throws like that without trying hard to look bad. She does have a point in "why is she throwing at the ground 10 feet in front of her?"

Unfortunately horrible throwing like this is all too real.

 

[Wellphyt]

I am following this with great interest Well and FFS. Hope it continues.

Well, in your collage of 5 images, it's a bit confusing for me since the Tewks girls is obviously further along in her throwing motion. But I think, or hope, I understand your point: you feel that she isn't moving incorrectly per se, upper and lower body action, you believe her arm is ahead, synch-wise, with the thigh rolling over. Is that a correct statement?

I think Five's post just before the catcher vid, and the Tewks drill slowly sinking in has been eye-opening for me. I think the talk of the getting weight back, as in front to back-back, or as FFS points out the thoracic extension, has finally sunk in and I can see now how incredibly important that is.

Little confused about all the 'L' talk. Everyone is in agreement that at some point the arm has an 'L' orientation, or not?

Also, while the loading or whatever you want to call it of the lower back and lat seems to be a critical truth I always performed but never realized, I am still skeptical of the arm behind the head.

Not that I think the arm behind the head is wrong or right. I just am not convinced it is connected to the critical feeling that Tewks is trying to get players to feel.

Let's also keep in mind that the Tewks vid I posted in a drill, and the girl we are discussing was brought in as a very interesting case to study, a girl who obviously made huge strides, but perhaps isn't considered by Tewks to have perfect form or synchronization.

All the players in the collage of pictures that I posted are roughly at the same point in their throwing sequence, including Tewk's girl. The difference is that Tewk's girl is out of sequence and has prematurely rotated her arm into the "L" position prior to her front thigh rolling over. Now when her thigh rolls over to trigger her throw her shoulder is going to be under a tremendous amount of stress because the tendons in her shoulder joint are close to max stretched out when the arm is externally rotated in the "L" position. Her torso is suddenly and forcefully going to begin to turn forward while she is holding a 7oz ball in a static position with the tendons in her shoulder close to stretched to the max. It's the equivalent of stretching a rubber band to the max and then suddenly and forcefully trying to stretch it some more.

The other players in the collage have their arms internally rotated. When their front thigh rolls over there will be zero stress on their shoulder as the throw is triggered because there is zero stress on the shoulder while the arm is rotating up into the "L" position.

IMO there are three things kids can do to avoid injury when they throw overhand. The first is to turn sideways to their target. The second is to keep their arm internally rotated until the front thigh begins to roll over. The third is to land on a flexed front leg to lengthen the amount of distance the arm has to decelerate. My guess is that every guy on here who played baseball through at least high school, keeps their throwing arm bent and close to level to the ground until their front thigh begins to roll over. Seriously, how many of the men on here, when they throw overhand, take the ball to the "L" position prior to their front thigh rolling over I've tried it numerous times to get a better understanding of what the girls are doing, and it is very unnatural. When I do it I feel completely out of sync and literally feel like I'm "throwing like a girl".

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

All the players in the collage of pictures that I posted are roughly at the same point in their throwing sequence, including Tewk's girl. The difference is that Tewk's girl is out of sequence and has prematurely rotated her arm into the "L" position prior to her front thigh rolling over. Now when her thigh rolls over to trigger her throw her shoulder is going to be under a tremendous amount of stress because the tendons in her shoulder joint are close to max stretched out when the arm is externally rotated in the "L" position. Her torso is suddenly and forcefully going to begin to turn forward while she is holding a 7oz ball in a static position with the tendons in her shoulder close to stretched to the max. It's the equivalent of stretching a rubber band to the max and then suddenly and forcefully trying to stretch it some more.

The other players in the collage have their arms internally rotated. When their front thigh rolls over there will be zero stress on their shoulder as the throw is triggered because there is zero stress on the shoulder while the arm is rotating up into the "L" position.

IMO there are three things kids can do to avoid injury when they throw overhand. The first is to turn sideways to their target. The second is to keep their arm internally rotated until the front thigh begins to roll over. The third is to land on a flexed front leg to lengthen the amount of distance the arm has to decelerate. My guess is that every guy on here who played baseball through at least high school, keeps their throwing arm bent and close to level to the ground until their front thigh begins to roll over. Seriously, how many of the men on here, when they throw overhand, take the ball to the "L" position prior to their front thigh rolling over I've tried it numerous times to get a better understanding of what the girls are doing, and it is very unnatural. When I do it I feel completely out of sync and literally feel like I'm "throwing like a girl".

Bold above ... are you sure that these players rotate their arm into the "L" position? Let's see the video of their throws.

 

[Wellphyt]

Maddux one frame before front thigh rolls over:


Maddux at frame where front thigh rolls over:


Maddux two frames later in "L" position:


Maddux one frame later in the position that Tewks emphasizes:


According to Hodge there is much less stress placed on the shoulder if you let the roll over of the front thigh trigger the arm into external rotation as in the second image, opposed to externally rotating the arm as depicted in the last image and then rolling the front thigh over to trigger the throw.

 

[Wellphyt]

For those who like to experiment. When you throw, keep your throwing arm back and internally rotated palm down as you stride. Try to keep your throwing arm from triggering into external rotation when your front thigh rolls over just before your foot lands. Can you feel how your arm WANTS to externally rotate and go up into the "L" position when your front thigh rolls over? Can you feel how the two actions are connected?

Now take your arm up behind your head like Tewk's girl does, and then roll over your front thigh.

Which way do you normally throw?

Hodge is the only person I've ever heard point out the connection between the front thigh roll over and the external rotation of the throwing arm. Prior to seeing his videos I had no idea my body worked that way when I throw overhand. The connection between the front thigh and throwing arm is so natural for most men that we don't realize it's there and therefore don't understand it's significance. I personally didn't even realize my front thigh rolled over before my front foot landed. It's just something my body does when I throw. Until I saw the Hodge info I never considered it a big deal.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Maddux one frame before front thigh rolls over:
View attachment 1932

Maddux at frame where front thigh rolls over:
View attachment 1933

Maddux two frames later in "L" position:
View attachment 1934

Maddux one frame later in the position that Tewks emphasizes:
View attachment 1935

According to Hodge there is much less stress placed on the shoulder if you let the roll over of the front thigh trigger the arm into external rotation as in the second image, opposed to externally rotating the arm as depicted in the last image and then rolling the front thigh over to trigger the throw.

In other words, your own data suggests that the "L" is not the goal ......

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

For those who like to experiment. When you throw, keep your throwing arm back and internally rotated palm down as you stride. Try to keep your throwing arm from triggering into external rotation when your front thigh rolls over just before your foot lands. Can you feel how your arm WANTS to externally rotate and go up into the "L" position when your front thigh rolls over? Can you feel how the two actions are connected?

Now take your arm up behind your head like Tewk's girl does, and then roll over your front thigh.

Which way do you normally throw?

Hodge is the only person I've ever heard point out the connection between the front thigh roll over and the external rotation of the throwing arm. Prior to seeing his videos I had no idea my body worked that way when I throw overhand. The connection between the front thigh and throwing arm is so natural for most men that we don't realize it's there and therefore don't understand it's significance. I personally didn't even realize my front thigh rolled over before my front foot landed. It's just something my body does when I throw. Until I saw the Hodge info I never considered it a big deal.

Bold above ... my personal throw is more like how Hodge describes the throw ... or a subset of Hodge's description ... Hodge misses the importance of thoracic extension, and that is present in my throw.

Watched a local Varsity HS game this morning. The majority of throws were more like Tewks described where the front thigh was more of a trigger for re-direction ... those using the front thigh as a trigger for external rotation were in the minority. Also as an FYI, 100% of those making decent throws performed thoracic extension on the onset of the lead thigh trigger.

 

[Mr T]

All the players in the collage of pictures that I posted are roughly at the same point in their throwing sequence, including Tewk's girl. The difference is that Tewk's girl is out of sequence and has prematurely rotated her arm into the "L" position prior to her front thigh rolling over.

When I look at the Tewks girl frame by frame, the frame you chose I feel she is rolling the thigh over, whereas the other players you show, mostly they haven't started to roll the thigh.

In any case, I understand your point and indeed she externally rotates the arm earlier.

I thank both of you for the discussion, it is great.