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marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
After not knowing basic rules (I've posted before and won't rehash), this is my #1 gripe. I see umpires just guessing/making things up ALL THE TIME. It's frustrating. It's frustrating when they say a thing did/did not happen that everybody in the park saw. And maybe I'm different from most coaches, but if I'm talking to an umpire about a play and they say they didn't see it or were obscured by a player or something, I immediately just end the discussion. Can't see everything, stuff happens, and I accept "I didn't see it" as a response pretty much 100% of the time.

If he was obscured/didn't see it, then you have the right to appeal and most umpires will go discuss - that is a perfect time to see if his partner can help. Remember as it was not their partners call it is possible they weren't looking in the plays direction - this is the answer to why the other umpire often can't provide help even when asked on what looks like an obvious mistake - it is normally because the other umpire is taking care of something else that is their responsibility and they actually may be the only person NOT focused on the play as it happens.

Look - if it is my call, I still have to make a call based on the information I have. There is no option to NOT make a call. I am not 'making a call up' - that is something completely different - but I could be making a call without all the information I would ideally like.

If I am obscured then I know it and if a coach comes out and asks about it, then you have something appealable and I can go talk to my partner. If the partner didn't see something different related to the appeal, the call stands.

For example - and this is a classic hard call in 2-man mechanics - I am in 'C' position (basically I am off the SS's RIGHT shoulder) with a runner on 2nd and 3rd. Hard grounder to SS who checks 3rd and then throws to 1st. It is going to be my call at 1B but I am stuck behind the SS until she throws it - because it is also my call at 2nd or 3rd if she throws there and I have nowhere to go anyway. For whatever reason the 2B wandered over towards 1st - maybe the runners break on the throw so I have a runner going from 2nd-3rd also possibly in vision. Once the throw happens I move towards 1st as best I can and stop with the ball half way there (make call when STOPPED).

So I am:
- Further away than ideal
- there is a 2B and 1B in vision and possible a runner going from 2nd-3rd
- the runner is quick so it is going to be a classic 'bang-bang' call.
- the throw is not 'straight' so the 1B is basically reaching directly towards me which is a crappy angle to see - because it is also kind of obscuring the base...
- I see/hear the ball in the glove before I see the runners foot on the base so I call her 'out' (or the other way around)

- If the coach comes out to just say I got it wrong he is questioning my judgement. And that is not appealable, so the call stands.
- If the coach comes out and asks if I was obscured or he saw the fielder off the bag and I agree that I was obscured or couldn't see that aspect of the play, then it is worth talking to my partner about and I will go do that. I will then ask specifically about the appeal (was the fielder on the bag, I was partially obscured by the 1B) and so on. I am not going to discuss the whole play - just the appealable part.
- If no one comes out, I probably got it right :)

Just for reference - same play in 3-man mechanics there will be an umpire in the 'B' position (off the 2nd base shoulder) so they are in a much better position to make the call at 1B when this play happens. That is what an extra official provides...


BTW, writing this all out helps me because it makes me think through my understanding of this and also if I get any of it wrong, MTR or Comp will correct my understanding which will only make me a better umpire (and coach).
 
Last edited:
Jun 6, 2016
2,714
113
Chicago
I wasn't clear enough in my response when I said "making a call up." I do understand umpires have to call something.

The example in my head when I typed that was a situation where our SS dropped a throw on a force at second. The runner immediately took off for third, so we were yelling to throw to make a play on her. She did, our 3B tagged her out. The umpire kept saying she was already out because the ball was never dropped. It wasn't a case of dropping on the transfer. She literally dropped the ball. AND he didn't say she dropped it on the transfer. He said she didn't drop the ball. Now, I'm guessing he didn't see it (he was positioned on the right side of second base, behind, and I can see how it's possible he never saw this). But he was argumentative with both teams, and even our SS admitted she dropped the ball. So in that case, he literally made something up in his explanation.

An example of me accepting "I didn't see it" was actually a game when we only had a plate umpire. One of our hitters hit a shot down the third base line. 3B dove, never touched the ball, and the ball went under her, clipped the front outside corner of the bag, and went into foul territory. The umpire called it foul. Now, normally I wouldn't even approach to talk because he certainly can't just undo the call, but I did in this case because it obviously hit the base, and some of our umpires are so bad that I wasn't even sure if he knew hitting the base = fair. So all I did was call time, went up to him, and said it hit the base. He said that he didn't see it because the 3B diving blocked his vision. He had nobody to ask for help, and it was totally reasonable to see how that could've happened. So I just said OK and let it go.

A question though. Let's say there was a base umpire for that game. With nobody on, that's the plate umpire's call (I think). When I go to the plate ump and he gives me that explanation, is it proper to ask "Since you were obscured, can you please ask the base umpire if he saw the ball hit the bag?" Is that how I should approach it? (And, of course, I also understand the base umpire may not have had a better view and the call may stand; I'm just asking about the best way to respectfully ask him to ask for help without saying "You really effed that one up, buddy.")
 
Oct 11, 2010
8,337
113
Chicago, IL
Problem I am having is OP has a lot of Issues and other posts are introducing different ones.

Biggest is OP, if ump lectures DD for sighing I would hope we would leave. Umpire is not allowed lecture DD.

She has been called for quick pitching and given advice but never lectured or yelled at. I know people do not like advice but I am OK with it.
 

marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
I wasn't clear enough in my response when I said "making a call up." I do understand umpires have to call something.

Lets go through each one...

The example in my head when I typed that was a situation where our SS dropped a throw on a force at second. The runner immediately took off for third, so we were yelling to throw to make a play on her. She did, our 3B tagged her out. The umpire kept saying she was already out because the ball was never dropped. It wasn't a case of dropping on the transfer. She literally dropped the ball. AND he didn't say she dropped it on the transfer. He said she didn't drop the ball. Now, I'm guessing he didn't see it (he was positioned on the right side of second base, behind, and I can see how it's possible he never saw this). But he was argumentative with both teams, and even our SS admitted she dropped the ball. So in that case, he literally made something up in his explanation.

So this is a 'depends' because it depends when he was saying she was already out. If the ball is still being thrown around and he is saying it to kill a play or something, there is an issue. Unless you need to kill the play, you let the players throw around - then you can say 'runner was out at 2' - and if he REALLY didn't see the ball drop before the SS has picked it up and thrown it to 3rd then he hasn't made anything up - he has made a call he has to make with what he believed he saw and the information he has. Just because you, or the player or anyone else saw something different they should not change what they judged unless he goes to talk to his partner on the appeal . "I saw the ball on the ground, can you please check with your partner to see if he saw this'. If his partner DIDN'T see the ball on the ground, call stands. If he did, well then they need to make the next decision.


An example of me accepting "I didn't see it" was actually a game when we only had a plate umpire. One of our hitters hit a shot down the third base line. 3B dove, never touched the ball, and the ball went under her, clipped the front outside corner of the bag, and went into foul territory. The umpire called it foul. Now, normally I wouldn't even approach to talk because he certainly can't just undo the call, but I did in this case because it obviously hit the base, and some of our umpires are so bad that I wasn't even sure if he knew hitting the base = fair. So all I did was call time, went up to him, and said it hit the base. He said that he didn't see it because the 3B diving blocked his vision. He had nobody to ask for help, and it was totally reasonable to see how that could've happened. So I just said OK and let it go.

Good move. Nothing he could or should do to change his call and it is not appealable anyway. Once he calls foul, it is foul. One exception on OTF balls (see below)


A question though. Let's say there was a base umpire for that game. With nobody on, that's the plate umpire's call (I think). When I go to the plate ump and he gives me that explanation, is it proper to ask "Since you were obscured, can you please ask the base umpire if he saw the ball hit the bag?" Is that how I should approach it? (And, of course, I also understand the base umpire may not have had a better view and the call may stand; I'm just asking about the best way to respectfully ask him to ask for help without saying "You really effed that one up, buddy.")

My understanding is that fair/foul on a ball in play is NOT appealable unless it is a home run and we are deciding whether it was on the right or wrong side of the foul pole. So once it is called foul - it is foul. So a second umpire is not going to make a difference here. That makes some sense because deciding where to put runners if it was changed from foul to fair would not be a fun thing.

One thing I worked on this year - waiting to make the foul call until it is 100% FOUL. You don't make the call until it is absolutely foul (and if it is fair you never say ANYTHING)
 
Jun 6, 2016
2,714
113
Chicago
So this is a 'depends' because it depends when he was saying she was already out. If the ball is still being thrown around and he is saying it to kill a play or something, there is an issue. Unless you need to kill the play, you let the players throw around - then you can say 'runner was out at 2' - and if he REALLY didn't see the ball drop before the SS has picked it up and thrown it to 3rd then he hasn't made anything up - he has made a call he has to make with what he believed he saw and the information he has. Just because you, or the player or anyone else saw something different they should not change what they judged unless he goes to talk to his partner on the appeal . "I saw the ball on the ground, can you please check with your partner to see if he saw this'. If his partner DIDN'T see the ball on the ground, call stands. If he did, well then they need to make the next decision.

My issue wasn't with him calling the out on the force/thinking she had the ball. It was with him gaslighting everybody on both teams by saying the ball was never on the ground. Not "I didn't see her drop it." He told the shortstop she didn't drop the ball when the ball was literally on the ground at some point. So when I talk about them making stuff up, it's not "I didn't see it." It's screaming at both teams "She didn't drop the ball!" when she literally had to pick it up off the ground.

I work with a lot of girls who are trying to learn a complicated game on the fly, and when we have umpires just making stuff up -- just outright lying to their faces -- it makes it incredibly hard.

Anyway, that particular umpire is terrible and unprofessional. He's combative, tries to instigate fights, injects himself in calls that are not his to make, and doesn't know basic rules (I've talked about him before: He's the one who said "it depends where it hits her" when deciding to not call a strike when a batter swung at a pitch that hit her; he's also one of the ones who said a pitch that bounces before hitting the batter is not a hit by pitch in fastpitch).
 

marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
Anyway, that particular umpire is terrible and unprofessional. He's combative, tries to instigate fights, injects himself in calls that are not his to make, and doesn't know basic rules (I've talked about him before: He's the one who said "it depends where it hits her" when deciding to not call a strike when a batter swung at a pitch that hit her; he's also one of the ones who said a pitch that bounces before hitting the batter is not a hit by pitch in fastpitch).

Ugh... sounds like a real MSU Umpire. Locally we have been able to get rid of most of them - our local guys are for the most part very good or at the very least giving it their all to be as good a they can be.
 
Aug 23, 2016
359
43
We had one of those MSU umps a couple weeks ago.

DD up to bat, two strikes. She fouls the next pitch off, ball hits the catcher's mitt and then goes to the backstop. Catcher is about to throw back to the pitcher but the ump tells her to tag DD. Catcher tags DD, DD is out.

Coach asks if he was saying that DD swung and missed, the ump says no, it was a dropped foul tip. So coach asks why it was an out if the catcher didn't make the catch. Ump says that the catcher dropped it but tagged out DD before she got to first. Coach points out that it wasn't a swing and a miss, ump tells him that's right, it was a dropped foul tip.

Coach could not convince the ump that if the catcher doesn't catch it, it's just a foul ball.
 

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