Ump says DP can't play defense?

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Jun 9, 2009
84
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Yesterday, high school play in game. We are utilizing DP/Flex.

Second inning, our right fielder becomes ill. We tell the ump we are going to sub for her, but will send our DP out to play in her spot defensively. He says if we do this we will "lose our flex". I ask "Why would we lose our flex? This has nothing to do with our flex? She will still be out there on defense."

He tells me "DP is an OFFENSIVE player. If you put her out there on defense, that is a substitution."

I respond "No, the DP can play any defensive position other than for the flex and it's just a defensive rotation, not a substitution."

At this point he starts being half an rear, "How can it be a defensive rotation when she's on your bench? That would mean you have ten defenders! You show me where you have ten defensive positions out there!"

Now I'm completely :confused: and not believing what I'm hearing from this gray-haired ump who I know has umped for years. I try one more time "We don't have 10 defensive positions out there, but the DP is available to play defense as long as it's not for the flex!" He looks at me like I've just spoken heresy. The inning is getting ready to start and I'm not getting anywhere, so I go sit down with my rule book.

Next inning break, based on his statement "Show me where..." I read him the rule that says the DP can "replace anyone on defense any number of times yadda yadda yadda". Now he's a full on rear and tells me "YES THE DP CAN PLAY DEFENSE... AS A SUBSTITUTE! DP IS AN OFFENSIVE POSITION! NOW GO SIT DOWN!"

I SERIOUSLY debated getting tossed at that point, but it was early in an important game so I didn't want to go there even though I felt this was CLEARLY a misapplication of the rules. How would you have handled this? Is this a protestable position?
 
Last edited:

Ken Krause

Administrator
Admin
May 7, 2008
3,908
113
Mundelein, IL
Based on my understanding of the rules, and what I read here, you are correct that the DP could play right field on defense without it being a substitution. However, when your right fielder's turn came to hit, you would have had to insert a pinch hitter or taken an out. The DP would continue to bat in her original spot. Maybe you knew that but I figured it was worth clarifying.

That said, I think you probably did all you could to handle it. Although I will say you probably should not have read the rule book to the umpire, or even bring it on the field. I have never found umpires to appreciate that, as they feel they are being shown up. You could have mentioned you had a rule book in the dugout and he could check it between innings. But in my experience that probably wouldn't have happened either.

Unfortunately, there really isn't much you can do if an umpire misunderstands a rule and won't change. Not sure if you can file a protest or not. I will say I've had situations where after a game at a tournament an umpire has come to me and apologized for getting the rule wrong (another substitution-type situation) but that does you little good because it doesn't change the outcome of the game.

You do what you can, then you chalk it up as an error on the umpire and move on.

ETA: This is one of the many reasons I never liked using the DP/flex.
 
Jun 22, 2008
3,731
113
However, when your right fielder's turn came to hit, you would have had to insert a pinch hitter or taken an out.

This is not correct. The DP can play defense for any player but the Flex and it is not a substitution. Whoever the DP may be playing for has not left the game, they are simply not out playing defense. They are still in the batting order and continue to bat just as they did before the DP played defense for them.

As for the umpire in the OP, I would call your state high school athletic association and discuss the situation with them. Someone needs to set the umpire straight because the DP/Flex is used quite often.
 
Jun 9, 2009
84
6
Thanks for the response Ken. I actually asked him before reading him the rule if he wanted to hear it, but I agree it's generally not a great move.

This was actually the first time we had used DP/Flex. We had already inserted another player into the batting for the right fielder. When we notified him of that, and mentioned that the DP would be playing defense that's what set everything off. One thing I'm not clear on is whether we had a duty to inform that we were going to send the DP in on defense since it is just basically a defensive adjustment?
 
Jun 9, 2009
84
6
As for the umpire in the OP, I would call your state high school athletic association and discuss the situation with them. Someone needs to set the umpire straight because the DP/Flex is used quite often.

I have been considering this. I don't really want to be 'that coach' but the guy just clearly has no handle on even the rudiments of the rule.

Can you answer for me Comp, is there any requirement to notify the ump when you send your DP out on defense? I wonder if that is why this hasn't come up with this ump before, teams are just sending their DP out there and the ump has no idea.
 
Last edited:

JAD

Feb 20, 2012
8,231
38
Georgia
I wonder if that is why this hasn't come up with this ump before, teams are just sending their DP out there and the ump has no idea.

You would be amazed how many teams track the opposing teams batting order, but have no clue who is playing defense unless the other team changes pitchers....
 
Jun 9, 2009
84
6
You would be amazed how many teams track the opposing teams batting order, but have no clue who is playing defense unless the other team changes pitchers....

I got to thinking about this after last night. We use Iscore and try to be pretty diligent about tracking everything, but yeah, I'm sure many teams aren't. And even using electronics it's pretty hard to verify who is actually out there if they are moving around at all.
 
Jun 22, 2008
3,731
113
I have been considering this. I don't really want to be 'that coach' but the guy just clearly has no handle on even the rudiments of the rule.

Can you answer for me Comp, is there any requirement to notify the ump when you send your DP out on defense? I wonder if that is why this hasn't come up with this ump before, teams are just sending their DP out there and the ump has no idea.

There is no requirement in ASA, NFHS, USSSA, TCS to report defensive position changes. The only time you are required to report to the umpire is for an actual substitution or when the dp plays defense for the flex, or the flex bats for the DP. It is highly suggested you inform the umpire of any defensive changes involving the pitcher or catcher for courtesy running purposes. If the umpire doesnt happen to notice you changed one of the players, you may be denied a courtesy runner should you request one.
 

softgabby

Gear Empress
Mar 10, 2016
1,073
83
Just behind home plate
I was reading this thread and don't understand what you guys mean by DP/Flex. I don't think our team uses it so I don't understand if it's a substitute or what the term means or how it works. Then again, we could and I don't realize it.
 

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