D3/JUCO programs

Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

Dec 2, 2013
3,410
113
Texas
I agree what was said before.

The NJCAA (Juco Athletic association) is divided into 3 divisions. Division 1: Scholarships for everyone! Division 2: Only a few scholarships. Division 3: No scholarships.

I was unaware of this breakdown. This is some good information that I don't think most know about.
 
Feb 15, 2016
273
18


MIT in MA currently has a fantastic DIII softball team. Academically as you can imagine the player profile it is pretty incredible. There is also NO athletic money - it is all academic. Right now they are probably as good as a mid-D1 program, but would struggle against the top 50 D1 programs. Finsihed really high in DIII NCAA last year



Interesting take with what supporting evidence? I would put a lot of money that teams 45-50 in the final NCAA D1 RPI would put a pretty good smoking on MIT. MIT would not "struggle" they would get crushed. The talent level is not that close. Yes, some good ballplayers choose to play D3 but there is no way they even compete with the top 45-50 D1 teams.

45 Nebraska Big Ten
46 South Fla. AAC
47 North Dakota St. Summit League
48 Pittsburgh ACC
49 Tulsa AAC
50 Ohio MAC

MIT is about equal to a middle D1 team? OK, let's put them in the MAC and see what their season record ends up being. Teams 140-160 in the final D1 RPI. I take the D1 teams all day long. That is not a knock on D3 or players who choose to play D3.

140 Northwestern St. Southland
141 Central Mich. MAC
142 Northern Ill. MAC
143 SFA Southland
144 Elon CAA
145 St. John's (NY) Big East
146 Western Mich. MAC
147 Campbell Big South
148 Grand Canyon WAC
149 Rutgers Big Ten
150 Western Ky. C-USA
151 Weber St. Big Sky
152 Delaware CAA
153 Bucknell Patriot
154 Bradley MVC
155 UNCW CAA
156 La.-Monroe Sun Belt
157 Seattle U WAC
158 ETSU SoCon
159 Loyola Chicago MVC
160 Kent St. MAC
 

marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
Interesting take with what supporting evidence? I would put a lot of money that teams 45-50 in the final NCAA D1 RPI would put a pretty good smoking on MIT. MIT would not "struggle" they would get crushed. The talent level is not that close. Yes, some good ballplayers choose to play D3 but there is no way they even compete with the top 45-50 D1 teams.

You have a several D3's with very reasonable D1 quality pitchers - and their ace is good enough to compete especially in a single game. You see it all the time in college softball. Having been through out the country and seen a lot of the talent that gets recruited and some great and crappy softball at all division levels of the game - the major difference in the big programs versus lower level programs is pretty much depth. You see it in even in the College World Series - the at large non-ranked teams can go toe-to-toe for a game but just don't have the depth to compete over a series of games. This is not much different.

Do they get crushed by top 50 team versus 'struggle' - I guess it depends on what you think the difference between crushed and struggle is... If you think the difference is 20-0 after 3 versus 5-0. Perhaps.

MIT is about equal to a middle D1 team? OK, let's put them in the MAC and see what their season record ends up being. Teams 140-160 in the final D1 RPI. I take the D1 teams all day long. That is not a knock on D3 or players who choose to play D3.

MIT is probably in a better position that most D3's to compete within the MAC since they have 3 solid pitchers. Same with Virginia Wesleyan and Iowa Wesleyan.

On your list I have confidence the best programs in D3 would regularly take at least a game in a three game series against most of these teams. In any game where the battery is good enough to hold a team to 3 or less runs it doesn't take much to put yourself in a position to win and these programs have some quality pitchers and the top half of their lineups are good enough. Looking through the MAC I believe MIT is probably good for 10-11 conference wins depending on schedule. That would put them in the same area as Western Michigan and Northern Illinois. Even 8 wins would put them in the 180 rnking area - you can see the 140 ranking from there.

Maybe I am over optimistic here. MIT might not be the absolute best comparison as they were #18 ranked in D3 last season. Maybe it is a better discussion with #1/National Champions Virginia Wesleyan.

But I don't think it is totally unreasonable. There is a large group of top D3 players who had D1 offers and decided the education (and sometimes immediate playing time) was a better option than a mid-D1. Of course there is a much larger group of D3 players who are really D3 players.
 

marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
...

But I don't think it is totally unreasonable. .


Decided to do a little more thinking about this and went out to see if I could gather some info from Massey Ratings. First realize the date on Massey is not recent - softball data appears to be from 2014 where Salisbury was the top D3 team at 44-5.

Massey has the 2014 Salsibury team as the 179th rated NCAA softball program irrespective of division. Massey also rated above Salisbury 22 D2 programs. That puts 156 D1 programs rated above them. While the methods, assumptions and other related variables make Massey more of a fun thing than a serious comparison, it still reasonably puts the top D3 program as competitive with mid-D1 programs.
 
Last edited:
Nov 18, 2013
2,255
113
In all likelihood my son will play D3 football. I’ll be just as proud as if he were in the NFL. Two things you’ll never hear me say though is how many D1 offers he passed up and chose D3 for the education; and that the top D3 schools would be competitive with mid level D1’s. There is simply no comparison between D1 and D3 in football or softball.

Be proud and happy wherever you play. Being a student athlete at any level takes a ton of commitment and hard work.
 
Apr 12, 2016
316
28
Minnesota
I will buy your pitching theory at least to some degree Marriard. On any given day a really good pitcher can shut down the other team.

There are updated Massey ratings by the way and the top D3 team, VA Wesleyan was rated about the same as the #101 rated D1 team (Austin Peay) then there is a huge drop off to where D3 #3 UT Tyler is rated the equal to #178 Portland State and D3 #10 Luther would come in at #242 just in front of Siena.

D3 runner-up Illinois Wesleyan took a game from the champs with about half the Massey rating score and a D1 rating of #234 right around Incarnate Word.

Fun to look at the probably meaningless numbers.

Sent from my LG-H820 using Tapatalk
 

marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
I will buy your pitching theory at least to some degree Marriard. On any given day a really good pitcher can shut down the other team.

There are updated Massey ratings by the way and the top D3 team, VA Wesleyan was rated about the same as the #101 rated D1 team (Austin Peay) then there is a huge drop off to where D3 #3 UT Tyler is rated the equal to #178 Portland State and D3 #10 Luther would come in at #242 just in front of Siena. D3 runner-up Illinois Wesleyan took a game from the champs with about half the Massey rating score and a D1 rating of #234 right around Incarnate Word.

That is really impressive by VA Wesleyan - helps to have a a truly dominant pitcher and a extremely good 2nd pitcher (and both were underclassman) and also put up over 6 runs of offense per game. Hanna Hull went 40-2 with a 1.0 ER and 376K over 268 innings. That is crazy. And she was just D3 pitcher of the year - Cassetty Howerin on the same team was player of the year with rec like offensive numbers.

Fun to look at the probably meaningless numbers.

That pretty much sums up about 95% of sports talk :)
 
Oct 19, 2009
1,277
38
beyond the fences
Marriard has posted the most relevant info.

I happened to be at the D3 National Championship in OKC over Memorial day. The quality of
the final 8 teams was excellent. These teams definitely were not short on talent and pitching.

The broader question of all programs is how well does the coaching staff recruit? MIT is selecting
from a very small group of HS players as these student athletes need to have the academic credentials
to attend the school. The recruiting process varies on D3 in general as these girls play for the love of
the game since there are zero athletic dollars attached to their college playing days.

OP-time to narrow the scope of your search as to the best fit academically for a student athlete to attain
a degree for a successful career after college. At all levels this remains the most crucial. There is very little
chance of making any real dollars as a professional SB player, the college days are merely a taxi ride to the career.
to
 
Feb 15, 2016
273
18
Marriard has posted the most relevant info.

I happened to be at the D3 National Championship in OKC over Memorial day. The quality of
the final 8 teams was excellent. These teams definitely were not short on talent and pitching.

The broader question of all programs is how well does the coaching staff recruit? MIT is selecting
from a very small group of HS players as these student athletes need to have the academic credentials
to attend the school. The recruiting process varies on D3 in general as these girls play for the love of
the game since there are zero athletic dollars attached to their college playing days.

OP-time to narrow the scope of your search as to the best fit academically for a student athlete to attain
a degree for a successful career after college. At all levels this remains the most crucial. There is very little
chance of making any real dollars as a professional SB player, the college days are merely a taxi ride to the career.
to

Nobody is saying D3 softball is bad. It is not good D1 softball. D1 also has some BAD teams. There are some D3 players who could have played D1 but chose to play D3. What does it mean to have a D1 offer? It depends which team your offer is from. D3 teams (even the better ones) are not loaded with players who could play on good D1 teams. Where do we draw the line at good D1 teams? That might be where there could be some argument. When the best D3 team is ranked about equal with the #100 D1 team that is pretty darn impressive. Maybe we draw the "good" line at Top 100 D1 schools. VA Wesleyan is obviously a good team. However, when the #10 team compares to #234 D3 is a little bit less impressive. There is not a lot of depth on rosters or in terms of teams in D3.

I think MIT would be a good fit for the Ivy League if they were a D1 team. They would be competitive and have some of the same academic constraints.

All that said, the NE is a good place to play D3 softball. Go to Marriard's Massey rankings and do some research. Look at the Old Dominion Athletic Conference with VA Wesleyan ranked #113 overall all the way down to Shenandoah ranked #1126. The NESCAC has Williams at #440 down to Colby at #1489. The New England Women's and Men's Athletic Conference has MIT at #486 all the way down to Clark MA at #1415. These are just examples. There is a school out there that can meet a player's academic and softball abilities. Some of the lower end D3 schools you can just show up and be on the team. Other schools are very selective when recruiting but I have never heard of a D3 school (even those that go to the D3 World Series) that will not let a player come out and tryout.

Bottom line, look at schools that your DD is interested in that also have her desired area of study. Then see which of those schools have D3 softball teams. You might be surprised at all the possibilities. If you are looking at D3 I would not rule out NAIA.
 

marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
Other schools are very selective when recruiting but I have never heard of a D3 school (even those that go to the D3 World Series) that will not let a player come out and tryout.

Most D1's including Power 5 schools have some sort of open tryout you can come out to as well. D1 programs need practice squad players, injury replacements, bullpen catchers, BP pitchers and so on. Probably not as many 'roster' spots as D3 programs, but they still have them. Also if you have a run of injuries you want to know who is on campus just in case - there are no 'guest' players who are not already students and NCAA qualified/cleared. of course sometimes it is just some policy that they have to have them :)

I don't think anyone is arguing that top end D1 is not way better than top-end D3 - i know i am not. I think the argument is where top-end D3 compares in the D1 hierarchy. I think MAC and Ivies is a reasonable spot.

MIT, Williams and Amherst et al would likely do reasonably well in the Ivies as they do care about their athletic programs - which is a major part of any program doing well. Some Ivies care more than others about sports but there is some significant talent (even if there is not a whole lot of depth).

If you want to see truly bad D1 softball go watch a SWAC game where last years champion Alabama A&M is ranked at #611 and Grambling is #1194. I saw them both play - #611 and #1194 is WAY generous for both teams. Truly some awful teams that in some cases would struggle to get far in a reasonable weekend 16U tournament (that may be a touch harsh).
 

Forum statistics

Threads
42,830
Messages
679,474
Members
21,443
Latest member
sstop28
Top