HS team attendance and planned events/appointments

Big Daddy Michigan · Apr 20, 2017

CoogansBluff said:
Sit-out penalties are not the end of the world, either.

I enjoyed your post, but my reaction to it is that you have a tough time accepting that someone whose competence you don't respect all that much is the one setting the rules.

I agree about sitting out not being the end of the world too. It's a two way street. If a player would rather go to a band concert than a SB game enjoy it. Play the greatest flute solo ever. I was trying to say that, maybe poorly. Let the kids do what they want to do, and as a coach make the decision you think fits THIS missed practice. They are not all equal.

Hmmm perhaps. What made you feel that I have a tough time accepting someone whose competence I don't respect setting the rules? You are probably right. Some of these things I learned because I was the one who screwed them up. What I was trying to convey was that if you have a one rule fits all absences situation you will likely have a situation that is the proverbial exception to the rule, and then what? Break your rule for that player damaging your credibility, (parent will say you're playing favorites), or enforce a rule in a situation that you don't think it fits. Just make decisions and be fair. It seems simple.

Here's a story that sort of relates, a volleyball star, team captain, and valedictorian was in a pickle. Her team was in the middle of a multi-year 144 match winning streak that started when her oldest sister was a sophomore. She was the 3rd sister in the program and it was a big deal in the family as you can imagine. Her English teacher was taking the class out of town for a field trip to see a play. The teacher was formerly my teacher and by this time a co-worker. She hated athletics and was quite vocal about that.

The player told the teacher she was going to have to miss the play because she had a game. The teacher told her she would give her a C for the marking period if she missed the play. That of course would eliminate her chances of being valedictorian, which she worked toward for 4 years. The player was crushed, feeling like she'd be letting the whole team down if she missed and they lost, but being valedictorian was equally important.

Just for the record I believe academics come first and love to watch plays. But I went on this field trip as a senior and everyone cranked music and stayed up the whole bus ride down, and then when the lights went out in the theatre everyone fell asleep. But that's really beside the point.

The coach vented to me about this situation, so I asked what are you going to do? He said, "I'm going to tell her to enjoy the play." I was pretty surprised because he's really driven and the streak meant a lot to him. He said, "She already had on person being an unreasonable a@@h@@@ in her life, she doesn't need two."

How does it end? Team won without her. The play was just OK, but she slept through the second act, so she can't really be sure. She was valedictorian, and got her education degree. When the miserable English teacher retired the former player was hired to fill her position, and she has gone on to be one of the best coaches we have at our school, so we all lived happily ever after.

MNDad · Apr 20, 2017

Phathead said:
Thanks and you should be proud of you DD's. That's where I think some HS coaches miss the boat. A kid can have a heck of a work ethic, put the hours in but not a nxt level desire. My DD has put way more time in thru P lessons and basement P sessions then the team will all season. Yet the coach who benifits from that time doesn't want her to miss a second of practice while the rest of the team was enjoying some down time if not involved in another sport. I just wanted to bring this up so more of coaches and parents can see the other side. Not that MNDAD is wrong but he has his take and solution. I don't agree with it but maybe he will see the other side also. Does a HS coach want a potential #1 or #2 pitcher to play rec instead of school just because they are only playing to finish out their career for the fun of the game and not nxt level dreams.

I understand where you’ve coming from and I do see the other side. DD plays college softball, but 16 yo son plays mostly rec sports. He just loves playing and knows there’s probably not a college future in it. His Lacrosse coach has a rule that you miss practice, you miss the next game. Yesterday we had a family emergency and he missed practice. Today he’ll watch the game from the bench. I have no problem with that if its intended to encourage the kids to be at practice.

I also know where you’re coming from as a pitchers parent. They put a lot of time in and it feels like they should be able to catch a break now and then. On the flip side lots of catchers and position players are putting in just as much on their hitting and fielding. I don’t think pitchers should have a different set of rules. I’d agree about prom. That takes priority over other school activities. I don’t know how it’s done across the country, but my experience was that the conference makes the schedules and if a game falls on prom, the coaches rescheduled it. Someone mentioned a kid being benched for half a season over missing a tourney or something. That’s too extreme. I just see missing one game more as incentive than punishment. If I were actually in your shoes and had to deal with this coach on a regular basis we might feel exactly the same. It’s really hard to know someone’s situation from a couple of posts. I didn’t intend on sounding judgmental or harsh.

BobInMadison · Apr 20, 2017

MNDad said:
I understand where you’ve coming from and I do see the other side. DD plays college softball, but 16 yo son plays mostly rec sports. He just loves playing and knows there’s probably not a college future in it. His Lacrosse coach has a rule that you miss practice, you miss the next game. Yesterday we had a family emergency and he missed practice. Today he’ll watch the game from the bench. I have no problem with that if its intended to encourage the kids to be at practice.

I also know where you’re coming from as a pitchers parent. They put a lot of time in and it feels like they should be able to catch a break now and then. On the flip side lots of catchers and position players are putting in just as much on their hitting and fielding. I don’t think pitchers should have a different set of rules. I’d agree about prom. That takes priority over other school activities. I don’t know how it’s done across the country, but my experience was that the conference makes the schedules and if a game falls on prom, the coaches rescheduled it. Someone mentioned a kid being benched for half a season over missing a tourney or something. That’s too extreme. I just see missing one game more as incentive than punishment. If I were actually in your shoes and had to deal with this coach on a regular basis we might feel exactly the same. It’s really hard to know someone’s situation from a couple of posts. I didn’t intend on sounding judgmental or harsh.

There are times when policy should be tempered with sanity.

Sitting a player for a game because a practice was missed for a family emergency is putting policy ahead of common sense, IMO. I am sure there are good reasons why coaches never want a player to miss practice, and I can understand giving preference in games to players who go to practice.
OTOH, some of the things I've seen on this forum are just doing things because that's the way things are done, so there. Such as punishing players for missing practice when sick, or a family emergency, or a doctor's appointment that had to be made months ahead of time and can't be rescheduled.

Here is a hypothetical case. I know a HS baseball player whose grandfather recently died, and whose grandmother is not far behind. Suppose he misses games or practices because he needs to visit her before she goes, or to attend a funeral? I know there are coaches with a no exceptions philosophy, but not making an exception in a case like that would seem like a no intelligence philosophy, and I wouldn't have much respect for a coach like that. I honestly hope I don't have to find out if the local HS baseball coaches would bench him or not, because I hope his grandmother lives at least a few more years.

Just as I mentioned in an earlier post that my mother is still upset at a HS teacher who was angry because she took 2 weeks off of school in 1945 to say goodbye to her father before he shipped out to the Pacific Theater, when she might not ever see him again. Incidentally, my mother said she learned far more from her travels on Route 66 and San Diego than she learned in school that year.

MNDad · Apr 20, 2017

BobInMadison said:
There are times when policy should be tempered with sanity.

Sitting a player for a game because a practice was missed for a family emergency is putting policy ahead of common sense, IMO. I am sure there are good reasons why coaches never want a player to miss practice, and I can understand giving preference in games to players who go to practice.
OTOH, some of the things I've seen on this forum are just doing things because that's the way things are done, so there. Such as punishing players for missing practice when sick, or a family emergency, or a doctor's appointment that had to be made months ahead of time and can't be rescheduled.

Here is a hypothetical case. I know a HS baseball player whose grandfather recently died, and whose grandmother is not far behind. Suppose he misses games or practices because he needs to visit her before she goes, or to attend a funeral? I know there are coaches with a no exceptions philosophy, but not making an exception in a case like that would seem like a no intelligence philosophy, and I wouldn't have much respect for a coach like that. I honestly hope I don't have to find out if the local HS baseball coaches would bench him or not, because I hope his grandmother lives at least a few more years.

Just as I mentioned in an earlier post that my mother is still upset at a HS teacher who was angry because she took 2 weeks off of school in 1945 to say goodbye to her father before he shipped out to the Pacific Theater, when she might not ever see him again. Incidentally, my mother said she learned far more from her travels on Route 66 and San Diego than she learned in school that year.

It’s only because I don’t think the penalty of one game isn’t all that serious. The grandfather example leads to an interesting thought. It makes sense to allow an exception for that. In our case, the dog had to be put down. That’s a good reason for us, but what if it was a hamster or the gold fish died? Maybe the player doesn’t need a reason and the coach should just be good with it? I’m not trying to support a case that the penalty for missing a practice should be missing a game or that a grandparent is equivalent to a gold fish. I just think the coach has a fair policy in place.

BobInMadison · Apr 20, 2017

I can see the dog dying as a borderline case.
Some coaches would allow that, others would not, and I wouldn't argue either way.

I have never coached a team, but I have taught college classes, where attendance at laboratories was mandatory, unless there was a good excuse.

I did have one student, the star of that college's football team, who took advantage of me trying to work with him.

He was not living with his son, but his son was going through some very bad health problems, and he said he would sometimes miss classes and labs because he would be out of town for his son. I was fine with that, but I saw him on campus sometimes on days when he skipped mandatory labs.

In the end, the more I tried to accommodation this student, the more he took advantage of it. At one point I realized I was just giving him rope to hang himself. He wound up with an incomplete, and I made him finish the class the next quarter, since I was about to leave that college. When he flunked, he tried to get me to change the grade so he could play football in the fall. Didn't work.

At the end, I took the grades to the registrar's office.

The college registrar was someone I knew, and was also a big football fan.

Registrar: "Hi Bob, what are you here for?"
Me: "I am destroying the next season for the football team."

I hand the grade to the registrar. Her face goes from confusion to shock.

Registrar: "You're right!"

I put that in to show that I understand WHY coaches have these rules, and why they sometimes get to be hard @$$ about the rules, because there are always students who will push leniency to the limit. I have complained about the HS coaches at DD 3's school, but I really pity the way they have to deal with parents. I mean, I can see how parents are REALLY making life rough for the coaches.

However, sometimes there has to be some flexibility in the rules.
I can also understand how the flexibility needs to be codified, such as you can take time off for this and not that.
I can also see how the rules can trap the coaches as well, since if you make an exception for one student you have to make one for another.
I realize that sometimes making the rules can trap the coaches into enforcing bad rules, so they have to be very careful about the rules ahead of time, or things will get very bad.

Amy in AZ. · Apr 20, 2017

We took a vacation every year at Thanksgiving. My kids did not play basketball. I did not expect the coach to accommodate us. (He would not have.)
My 2 oldest were boys. The HS coach did not accept any absences. They were repeat state champs, so he had a lot going in his favor. No one ever missed baseball for any reason. If the coach would have said "No prom." The boys would not have gone to prom.
I do not see changing these expectations for girls.

BB875 · Apr 20, 2017

As a coach here is my opinion:

1) If your DD has a medical issue, communicate that to the coach. Appointments for special situations are more important than practice. Any good coach would make accommodations for that.

2) Sorry, don't schedule a vacation during season. That is a choice. No way would I permit that. What message does it send to the rest of the team? To me it says, you consider your life is more important that the team. Everyone makes sacrifices. Playing HS softball is a choice too. Commit to one or the other.

3) Prom or other school activities have importance. Coach shouldn't schedule a game on Prom. Why make kids choose on those very important activities?

Bottom line for me is that school athletics require a big commitment. Practice quality is immaterial. You're either part of the team or you're not. A successful team consists of a group of kids which is bigger than any one individual player. If you cannot adhere to the team's non-negotiables, then don't play HS ball.

chinamigarden · Apr 20, 2017

Big Daddy Michigan said:
I agree about sitting out not being the end of the world too. It's a two way street. If a player would rather go to a band concert than a SB game enjoy it. Play the greatest flute solo ever. I was trying to say that, maybe poorly. Let the kids do what they want to do, and as a coach make the decision you think fits THIS missed practice. They are not all equal.

Hmmm perhaps. What made you feel that I have a tough time accepting someone whose competence I don't respect setting the rules? You are probably right. Some of these things I learned because I was the one who screwed them up. What I was trying to convey was that if you have a one rule fits all absences situation you will likely have a situation that is the proverbial exception to the rule, and then what? Break your rule for that player damaging your credibility, (parent will say you're playing favorites), or enforce a rule in a situation that you don't think it fits. Just make decisions and be fair. It seems simple.

Here's a story that sort of relates, a volleyball star, team captain, and valedictorian was in a pickle. Her team was in the middle of a multi-year 144 match winning streak that started when her oldest sister was a sophomore. She was the 3rd sister in the program and it was a big deal in the family as you can imagine. Her English teacher was taking the class out of town for a field trip to see a play. The teacher was formerly my teacher and by this time a co-worker. She hated athletics and was quite vocal about that.

The player told the teacher she was going to have to miss the play because she had a game. The teacher told her she would give her a C for the marking period if she missed the play. That of course would eliminate her chances of being valedictorian, which she worked toward for 4 years. The player was crushed, feeling like she'd be letting the whole team down if she missed and they lost, but being valedictorian was equally important.

Just for the record I believe academics come first and love to watch plays. But I went on this field trip as a senior and everyone cranked music and stayed up the whole bus ride down, and then when the lights went out in the theatre everyone fell asleep. But that's really beside the point.

The coach vented to me about this situation, so I asked what are you going to do? He said, "I'm going to tell her to enjoy the play." I was pretty surprised because he's really driven and the streak meant a lot to him. He said, "She already had on person being an unreasonable a@@h@@@ in her life, she doesn't need two."

How does it end? Team won without her. The play was just OK, but she slept through the second act, so she can't really be sure. She was valedictorian, and got her education degree. When the miserable English teacher retired the former player was hired to fill her position, and she has gone on to be one of the best coaches we have at our school, so we all lived happily ever after.

Marysville?

Cannonball · Apr 20, 2017

Parent perspective -

1. We know the length of the season from the IHSA Website. So, no appointments.
2. Vacations? That is what the summer is for. Kids are in school. Teams will practice and play games. They have a very limited time in their season to play. No vacation.
3. Our school will not allow any athletic event on the date of Prom. NONE. Coaches are limited to practice their teams before noon. No one practices after noon.

Coach's Perspective -

1. If one does it, everyone will do it. Not on my watch. Get those appointments done in the summer, fall, or winter.
2. Vacations? I am going to schedule as many games as we can. I will make up any rain outs etc. I have a limited time and so, we are playing.
3. Our school has always set aside the date of prom and it is locked in. Everything is locked in including facilities. So, I know it is coming. We set up a picture pose with the contracted prom photographer so we get a prom pic of the team every year. I don't want to ruin prom for these young ladies and so, I support this policy 100%.

Momo'sDad · Apr 20, 2017

Outside the family, I don't think any player's medical issues are anyone else's concern. Once you select an orthodontist, regardless of the reasons, you're pretty much locked in and subject to their availability. I'm in an area where the appointment calendar is booked out several months in advance. If a team has a no practice/no play rule, that's fine. Missing some innings or even a full game won't hurt anyone. Rest is not punishment.

My philosophy on Spring Break is that the players should have the time off, but I'm largely alone in that forest. So, it's up to the players to decide whether they're willing to give up future playing time in order to go on trips.

Prom is 2x in a lifetime. Let my people go.

HS team attendance and planned events/appointments

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