Thread: Force out or not?

There is a runner on first base. Batter hits a ground ball to the 2nd baseman who without thinking goes to first for the force. In the meantime the runner coming off of first hesitates to avoid the tag of the 2nd baseman and is now caught in a rundown. After the batter is out does the runner (in the run down) still have to try to advance to 2nd or can they return to 1st since it is now unoccupied?

I am more interested in this from the defensive perspective because if the runner still has to go to second, I want to make sure my players know not to get involved in a run down and risk throwing the ball away. Instead just throw over to 2nd and wait to tag the runner.

Runner can return to 1B or attempt to continue to 2B. Force is removed by the out at 1B.

Originally Posted by msw0567

There is a runner on first base. Batter hits a ground ball to the 2nd baseman who without thinking goes to first for the force. In the meantime the runner coming off of first hesitates to avoid the tag of the 2nd baseman and is now caught in a rundown. After the batter is out does the runner (in the run down) still have to try to advance to 2nd or can they return to 1st since it is now unoccupied?

I am more interested in this from the defensive perspective because if the runner still has to go to second, I want to make sure my players know not to get involved in a run down and risk throwing the ball away. Instead just throw over to 2nd and wait to tag the runner.

You need to remember, a runner is never forced to a base, but forced from a base due to another player gaining the right to that base. Obviously, if no other player has the right to a base, any other runner may occupy that base.

Remember this: there can never be a force out after the batter is put out.

Thanks to all 3 replies confirming what I thought was the correct answer. I was sure I knew the answer until one of my other coaches questioned me and I told him I would read the rule book. That was just more confusing!

OK, sorry for dragging this out. After rereading the replies I had a second thought that builds on the subject of this force out line of thinking. Assuming everyone's replies are correct and the runner "is forced from a base", or "there can never be a force after the batter is put out.'"

Let's talk fly ball. Batter is out on a caught fly ball. The runner returning to first is a force out and does not need to be tagged, correct? Why is this scenario different?

And of course now I am questioning if there is a single runner on 2nd or 3rd and there is a caught fly ball. Are they force outs returning to the bag as well or do they need to be tagged?

If the ball is caught before it hits the ground, the runners cannot advance from the bases they are on until the moment the catch is made. If they are off the base at that moment, they must return to "tag up", then may proceed to the next base. But, the ball is still live, and the runner has to beat the throw and/or avoid the tag. Note, if the runner is caught waaaaayyyyyy off the his original base, he can be put out at his original base, on a FORCE play (the fielder need only touch the base, with the ball in his possession, before the runner touches it). But if he successfully tags up and is headed for the next base, or back to his original base, the play must be a non-force play (the fielder must "tag" the runner, i.e., touch the runner with his glove, with the ball inside it, before he reaches either base.

Let's talk fly ball. Batter is out on a caught fly ball. The runner returning to first is a force out and does not need to be tagged, correct? Why is this scenario different?

This is not a "force out". This is a live ball appeal of a runner who has left a base before the ball was caught and has not yet tagged up.

If the ball is caught before it hits the ground, the runners cannot advance from the bases they are on until the moment the catch is made. If they are off the base at that moment, they must return to "tag up", then may proceed to the next base. But, the ball is still live, and the runner has to beat the throw and/or avoid the tag. Note, if the runner is caught waaaaayyyyyy off the his original base, he can be put out at his original base, on a FORCE play (the fielder need only touch the base, with the ball in his possession, before the runner touches it). But if he successfully tags up and is headed for the next base, or back to his original base, the play must be a non-force play (the fielder must "tag" the runner, i.e., touch the runner with his glove, with the ball inside it, before he reaches either base.

Runners may leave the base after the fly ball is first touched, not after the catch. Otherwise a fielder could purposely bobble the ball in order to catch base runners for additional outs. Again, throwing to a base to catch a runner off who has not yet tagged is not a force, it is a live ball appeal of a runner who has left base before the catch. As with any other play, a runner who is not in contact with a base is subject to being tagged out by a defensive player in posession of the ball.

Originally Posted by msw0567

OK, sorry for dragging this out. After rereading the replies I had a second thought that builds on the subject of this force out line of thinking. Assuming everyone's replies are correct and the runner "is forced from a base", or "there can never be a force after the batter is put out.'"

Let's talk fly ball. Batter is out on a caught fly ball. The runner returning to first is a force out and does not need to be tagged, correct? Why is this scenario different?

And of course now I am questioning if there is a single runner on 2nd or 3rd and there is a caught fly ball. Are they force outs returning to the bag as well or do they need to be tagged?

Those are not force outs, nor is a tag required.

You're appealing that the runners left early.

That is a great explanation and yes, I have learned something today. Thank you all!