What would an umpire consider a aggressive move towards a runner while in the circle?

**Momo'sDad** · 04-07-2012, 01:29 PM

The words 'aggressive move' do not appear in the rule as written, so my humble suggestion is to try to get it out of your thought process, because the word 'immediately' DOES appear.

As far as putting your team in the best position to score, there's zero upside to hanging out off 3B for '3-5 seconds' when the pitcher has the ball IN THE CIRCLE. With no other runners behind her - and no chance to score without an errant throw - there's all cost and no benefit.

Yes, the exception is part of the rule as explained by MTR, but the wiser course of action is to play to the rule as opposed to playing to the exception. It's a tough call, but as you described the situation, it sounds like the umpire was correct by the letter of the law. I teach aggressive base-running, too, but once the pitcher has the ball in the circle, if you stop the player, then she's got to immediately get back to the previous base.

Our runners can attempt to bait the opposing catcher into a throw, but not a pitcher with the ball in the circle.

**CoogansBluff** · 04-07-2012, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Momo'sDad

As far as putting your team in the best position to score, there's zero upside to hanging out off 3B for '3-5 seconds' when the pitcher has the ball IN THE CIRCLE. With no other runners behind her - and no chance to score without an errant throw - there's all cost and no benefit.

Good points.

The definition of the rule and the merits of the rule are two different things, and when they are brought up in one post or thread to discuss one play, it makes me wonder (in theory) if an underlying resentment of the rule might cause a coach or a team to provoke it at a subconscious level. Playing with fire, as it were. Hopefully, Dr. Drew will add his $.02

**Greenmonsters** · 04-07-2012, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by MTR

Okay, let's get this out of the "hearsay" column and rely on black and white

ASA 1.PLAY
An attempt by the defensive player to retire the offensive player. A pitch is not considered a play except as it relates to appeals.

ASA 8.7.T.1-3e.EXCEPTION The runner will not be declared out if

1. A play is made on any runner. A fake throw is considered a play.

ASA RS#34

J. While in the circle and in possession of the ball, any act by the pitcher that, in the umpire's judgment, causes the runner to react is considered making a play.

I agree, EA is an authoritive source, but the comment previously made may have been an oversimplification. SPEAKING ASA, what is the first act of a throw, or fake throw, with the majority, if not all, players? Would you not consider it to be the raising of the arm with the ball in the hand?

Can the pitcher not throw the ball to retire the runner from that position? Would that not qualify as meeting the definiton of a "play"?

I can tell you that in my judgment, a pitcher with the ball in hand of the arm raised in a throwing position facing a runner will be considered in the act of making a play.

MTR, I would be pleased to sign your petition to deep 6 the LBR!! I bet we could get several 100 sigs from this forum in no time!

**Jr10234** · 04-07-2012, 08:55 PM

Another similar situation: runner on three, batter walks and without stopping heads to 2. The pitcher looks at the runner, ball in glove and still in circle, but no one is on 2 for the throw. Runner on 3 is 5-7 feet off the bag waiting for the pitcher to throw and in never happens,she goes back to the bag once the runner reaches 2. I thought the runner on 3 would be out, this no-call was in our favor if I am right.

**Comp** · 04-07-2012, 10:03 PM

Once the batter/runner touched 1st, the lookback rule was in effect as long as the pitcher was making no play on any of the runners. If the runner at 3rd just stood there she should have been called out.

**02Crush** · 04-08-2012, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Comp

Once the batter/runner touched 1st, the lookback rule was in effect as long as the pitcher was making no play on any of the runners. If the runner at 3rd just stood there she should have been called out.

This is good to know....Yet another reason I am in agreement that this rule is not worthwhile to the game. Making a play for an out is and should be what matters. At a young age aggressive running and not look back rule might make for some headaches...however any player dumb enough on a short field to play chicken with a pitcher in full control and standing in the ready with the ball is not smart. This rule seems to only be to keep the game moving that is on a time limit.
When the pitcher runs hard in the circle towards third base....I consider that an attempt to make or fake a play. My players stopped and then waited until the pitcher was not longer looking to make a play and then immediately went back. I still say this was an interpretation deal in my game. Every time I turn around this rule is a pain in the butt so I wish Bretman, Comp or MTR were calling our games.

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