Force out question

Hello!

I have a rules question. I specifically play ASA adult slow-pitch softball, but I think my question would likely apply to any form of baseball or softball.

I was watching a game recently. The situation was tied score, time expired, two outs, home team batting, runners on first and third. The batter hits a line drive into shallow left field which is not caught. The runner from third scores easily. HOWEVER, the runner from first saw pretty quickly that the ball was not going to get caught. He took a few steps toward second base, but once he saw the ball hit the ground and the runner from third score, he walked back to his team's dugout and began celebrating with them. The other team SHOULD have thrown the ball to second base, getting the force out for the third out and thus negating the run. But they did not (this was a novice level game, so I'm guessing they either didn't notice that the runner never went to second or maybe they didn't know the rules). Anyway, the game ended like that.

Ok, so what's the question? Well, let's say the team on defense realized their mistake before they had left the field, but NOT before the runner from first base got into his dugout. So the sequence of events would be like this:

- Batter hits ball which is not caught
- Runner from third scores
- Runner from first goes into his dugout
- Team on defense realizes their mistake and throws the ball to second base

My question is this -- do they get the force out? The reason why I think they would NOT necessarily get the force out is because there is a rule (in the 2010 ASA rulebook it is Rule 8, Section 7.U) which states that a runner is out when they "abandon a base and enter the team area or leave live ball territory. EFFECT: The ball remains live." So, presumably once that runner enters the dugout, they are called out for the third out of the inning. And once they've been called out for this, they can no longer be forced out at second base -- you can't get the same runner out twice.

This brought to my mind the so-called 4th out rule, but that doesn't apply here. The typical example of that rule is something like one out, runners on second and third. Batter hits a fly ball and both runners leave on contact. Runner from third scores. The team on defense throws the ball to second base, appealing that the runner left early, and get that out. That's the third out of the inning. If that's ALL they do, then the run still counts. But if they throw the ball to third and appeal there as well, they get the so-called "4th out" and the run does not count. Anyway, that rule ONLY applies to appeal plays on a runner who scored. In the case I am describing, the runner you'd want to make the play against did not score, and in any case, there is no appeal play to be made. The play they would like to make is a force out at second, but as I said, the runner is already out for other reasons.

I've scoured the rule book but I have been unable to find anything to suggest the team on defense would be able to make a force out on that runner.

Now, you may be saying "Well, if the runner from first base had been running like he should have been, they wouldn't have had a play on him at second base anyway." That's probably true. But what if you had a really slow runner at first base and a really fast runner at third base? If the runner on first realized that he couldn't make it to second in time, he could choose instead to sprint for his dugout, with the goal of entering the dugout after the other runner crossed the place, but before they could get the force out at second base. In this case, the runner from first would be deliberately getting himself out (by leaving the field) in order to prevent the team from getting a forceout. And THAT seems to be to be against the spirit of the rules, although as I said, I can find no rule against this.

Anyway, I'm curious to know your thoughts on this situation. Thanks!

Mitch
I'm just an animal looking for a home

There were 2 outs, so runners should be going, no matter what.

If defense makes the throw to 2B before the runner arrives, then the 3rd out prevents the run from scoring. The runner isn't going to benefit from the fact that he made no attempt to advance to 2B.

Must not have scoured too hard.

Rule -
#1 - Force out
#8.7.C
#4.5.B.1
RS #1.J
RS #21

Momo:

I agree that the runner should be going no matter what. But rule 8.7.U clearly states that the runner is out when they enter the dugout or leave live ball territory. So if they do that BEFORE the throw is made to second base, then they are already out, and there is no longer a force play at second base. What rule are you citing to indicate this is not the case?

MTR:

I looked at all of those rules, and I don't see that they apply here.

Rule #1, definition of a force out: "An out which may be made only when a runner loses the right to the base that the runner is occupying because the batter becomes a batter-runner and before the batter-runnr or a trailing runner has been put out."

I agree that once the ball hits the ground in the outfield, the runner on first base is open to be forced out at second base.

Rule #8.7.C: "When, on a force play, a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball,, or tags the runner before the runner reaches the base."

Agreed -- that is indeed how one gets a force out on a runner.

Rule #4.5.B.1? I think we may have different rulebooks here, or perhaps you mistyped. In my book this rule concerns a player re-entering the game after leaving due to substitution, which doesn't seem to apply in this case.

Rule Supplement #1.J: "When an appeal is the third out and a force out, no runs shall score...On an appeal play, the force out is determined at the time the appela is made, not when the infraction occurred."

Agreed.

Rule Supplement #21: "A force out can be made by tagging a runner who is forced to advance to a base as a result of the batter becoming a batter-runner, or by touching the base to which they are forced... On an appeal play, the force out is determined at the time the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred."

Agreed.

However, I don't see how this addresses the issue I raise. Again, let me detail the sequence of events:

1. Batter hits the ball
2. Runner leaves third base for home
3. Ball hits the ground in left field
4. Runner from third base crosses the plate
5. Runner from first base enters the dugout

At this point, by rule 8.7.U, the runner from first base is out. And by the definitions above, this is NOT a force out (since a force out has to involve either tagging the runner or tagging the bag). It SOUNDS like you are suggesting that the defense can still throw the ball to second in some sort of an appeal play, but what rule allows them to do this? In other words, what rule allows you to make such an appeal on a runner who has already been called out? And it seems like rule supplement 1.M specificaly prohibits this, actually. It says "An appeal may be made after the third out of an inning as long as it is made properly. The appeal must be made on a runner who has scored but missed a base or left a base too soon." (emphasis mine) In the scenario I described, the third out of the inning is recorded once the runner enters the dugout. This runner did NOT score, so a 4th out appeal would not be allowed, based on RS 1.M.

What am I missing here?

He meant 5.5.B.1.

Crabby_Bob said:

He meant 5.5.B.1.

Click to expand...

Thank you, it was a typo

mitcharf said:

What am I missing here?

Click to expand...

That no umpire in their right mind would make such a call after the game has been won (5.6) shy of a legal appeal.

Crabby -- Thanks. I looked at that one and it doesn't seem to alter my line of reasoning, though.

MTR -- Look, I agree that it doesn't seem like this SHOULD be how the rules would shake out. When I first thought about it, I assumed there would be a rule which indicated why the force out would still be possible, even though the runner had already been called out for another reason. But as I said, I've been unable to find such a rule, and none of the rules quoted so far allow for such an appeal.

I don't understand your last remark, either. What call are you suggesting that the umpire wouldn't make? When the runner from first base enters their dugout, how can the umpire NOT call them out? It's clearly required by rule 8.7.U. Are you saying this call would not be made? That call is NOT an appeal play -- it's one the umpire is obligated to make.

And the definition of a force out does NOT apply to such a situation, since it requires that the out be "an out which may be made only when a runner loses the right to the base...", and the sort of out we're describing could happen whether or not the runner is forced.

Once that call HAS been made, though, I don't see any way for the other team to legally appeal it. It was the 3rd out of the inning, and as previously quoted, rule supplement 1M would not allow an appeal on that runner, since they did not score.

Which rule am I misinterpreting or overlooking?

mitcharf said:

Crabby -- Thanks. I looked at that one and it doesn't seem to alter my line of reasoning, though.

MTR -- Look, I agree that it doesn't seem like this SHOULD be how the rules would shake out. When I first thought about it, I assumed there would be a rule which indicated why the force out would still be possible, even though the runner had already been called out for another reason. But as I said, I've been unable to find such a rule, and none of the rules quoted so far allow for such an appeal.

I don't understand your last remark, either. What call are you suggesting that the umpire wouldn't make? When the runner from first base enters their dugout, how can the umpire NOT call them out? It's clearly required by rule 8.7.U. Are you saying this call would not be made? That call is NOT an appeal play -- it's one the umpire is obligated to make.

And the definition of a force out does NOT apply to such a situation, since it requires that the out be "an out which may be made only when a runner loses the right to the base...", and the sort of out we're describing could happen whether or not the runner is forced.

Once that call HAS been made, though, I don't see any way for the other team to legally appeal it. It was the 3rd out of the inning, and as previously quoted, rule supplement 1M would not allow an appeal on that runner, since they did not score.

Which rule am I misinterpreting or overlooking?

Click to expand...

Let's try again. R3 is NOT going to be called out for leaving the field of play AFTER the game was won. The umpires are not going to stand around and wait until the players finish high-fiving each other or whatever. Ever see the end of a game? What do the umpires do? They will wait long enough to see if there is any indication a team has an appeal. If not, they meet and exit the field, usually on the winner's side, if possible.

However, if there is a pending appeal, they will honor that appeal and since R3 was NOT called out for leaving the field of play. That appeal is a force out which negates the winning run and the teams will continue into the next inning.

As a player, I have executed these appeals numerous times, twice for a triple play, simply because the players don't know the rules. As an umpire, I've rule on this type of appeal maybe a half dozen times.

This year, there are two proposed changes in ASA to eliminate the need for anyone to touch a base in this situation except for the runner from 3B & the BR. I hope this does not get approved since there is no reason for anyone to be relieved of their baserunning duties.

Okay. Now if the defensive team appeals, throws the ball to second and the 3rd/force out is recorded, can the offensive team appeal that decision siting rule 8.7 saying that the out should have been recorded when the player entered the dugout? Which out would have precedent?