Dropped third

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Greenmonsters

Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
Feb 21, 2009
6,168
38
New England
I recently had an ump tell me that if a third strike hits the ground before it gets to the catcher, it is played as a dropped 3rd strike. I didn't get it then and with the historical explanation, it still doesn't make sense.

Instead of a pitch and swing and miss, just think of it like a pop up - if you catch it before it hits the ground, its an out, if it hits the ground before you catch it, it's in play.
 
Mar 28, 2011
35
6
I had a Hitter forget the count, so the catcher dropped what she thought was strike three but was actually strike two. The batter then took off to first thinking it was a dropped third. There was a runner on third and 1 out, so when the catcher threw to first the runner on third scored. The umpire then called the batter (with two strikes on her) out for "deception" and sent the runner back to third. It didn't make any sense to me on the ruling because just as the batter should have known the count, the catcher has got to know the count as well. I thought at the very least the runner goes back to third and finishes her at bat. I looked up a deception rule and didn't find anything. Does anyone have any info? Does it fall under Unsportsmanlike conduct?

I think this may be the rule that would apply in that situation:
Interference
Interference is the act of an offensive player or team member, umpire or spectator that impedes, hinders, or confuses a defensive player attempting to execute a play.
Contact is not necessary.
 
Mar 13, 2010
960
0
Columbus, Ohio
On the bounced pitch being the third strike...

The rules state that the batter is out when the third strike is caught by the catcher. While this play is generically called a dropped third strike, which leads many to believe that the ball must first be caught, then dropped, technically it is an uncaught third strike.

When the rule says the pitch must be "caught" it means that the ball must be caught "in-flight". That is, the ball must be caught before touching the ground. If the pitch bounces before the catcher secures it, it is an uncaught third strike for purposes of the rule.

On the batter running toward first with only two strikes...

There is no "deception rule". And it's not necessarily interference, either. For it to be interference, the batter must actually prevent the defense from making a play. "A play" is defined as the defense's opportunity to record an out.

Was the throw by the catcher an opportunity to record an out? No! The batter would not be out if the ball was cleanly fielded to first base.

Was the throw an attempt to retire the runner that was already on base? No! Since no out was prevented by the batter's actions, no interference was committed- and the defense is NOT rewarded with a free out for making an unecessary throw.

Could this possibly be interference? Yes! If there was a runner at first who was off the bag and the batter actually interfered with a pick-off to retire her, then you would have interference (ie: the opportunity to record an out would have been prevented by a batter out of the batter's box). But that wasn't the case here.

The end result of this play should have been...the runner's advance stands. The batter comes back to complete her at-bat. And, the coach should probably have a talk with his catcher about being aware of the count and not making unecessary throws!
 
Apr 14, 2011
64
6
I had a Hitter forget the count, so the catcher dropped what she thought was strike three but was actually strike two. The batter then took off to first thinking it was a dropped third. There was a runner on third and 1 out, so when the catcher threw to first the runner on third scored. The umpire then called the batter (with two strikes on her) out for "deception" and sent the runner back to third. It didn't make any sense to me on the ruling because just as the batter should have known the count, the catcher has got to know the count as well. I thought at the very least the runner goes back to third and finishes her at bat. I looked up a deception rule and didn't find anything. Does anyone have any info? Does it fall under Unsportsmanlike conduct?

We recently had this happen in two games. In the first game, we got the short end of the stick. The opposing manager managed to convince the umpire that our batter shouldn't have run and distracted the catcher, which allowed a run to score. The umpire sent the runner back to 3rd and the batter-runner back to bat. After the game I explained to the coaches that there is no such rule and that it's the catcher's responsibility to know the count.

Fast forward a couple of games, and the same thing happens, except we're in defense. Our catcher (my DD, who knows better!) throws the ball to 1st because the batter ran, allowing the runner on 3rd to score. Our coach, who knew he had no argument, still tried to argue the same thing the opposing coach had done to us. This umpire knew better and sent him on his way!
 
Jul 21, 2008
415
0
I'v seen this happen before 2 balls on batter with bases loaded and the next pitch ball 3 the batter takes off to first as if it was ball 4 all base runners advance. When runner gets to first ump says thats on ball 3, batter returnes to hit but base runner advanced at there own risk.

COULD the Ump make base runners go back or tough they should have know the count?
 
Mar 28, 2011
35
6
On the bounced pitch being the third strike...

The end result of this play should have been...the runner's advance stands. The batter comes back to complete her at-bat. And, the coach should probably have a talk with his catcher about being aware of the count and not making unecessary throws!

So if this is true, then a Coach could actually teach his/her players this play, or lets call it a decoy, and exploit the defenses mental lapse at catcher? What would stop the offense from manipulating this rule, or loophole in the rule?
 
Nov 17, 2010
191
18
Exploiting mental lapses is a cornerstone of this game...

So if this is true, then a Coach could actually teach his/her players this play, or lets call it a decoy, and exploit the defenses mental lapse at catcher? What would stop the offense from manipulating this rule, or loophole in the rule?

Isn't exploiting mental lapses part of every game? Whether it's baserunners advancing when an outfielder holds the ball or infielder throws behind a lead runner or a tag of a runner that overruns a base instead of sliding, this game is cerebral. The team that capitalizes on a mental mistakes by the other team is not manipulating anything. They're playing the game. Games are seldom decided only by strikeouts or home runs. There's deception and misdirection all over the place. Running to first with two strikes or three balls is no different, in my opinion.

The only way to stop a team from doing this, aside from making it illegal, is to defend it properly. Know the game.
 
Mar 28, 2011
35
6
Isn't exploiting mental lapses part of every game? Whether it's baserunners advancing when an outfielder holds the ball or infielder throws behind a lead runner or a tag of a runner that overruns a base instead of sliding, this game is cerebral. The team that capitalizes on a mental mistakes by the other team is not manipulating anything. They're playing the game. Games are seldom decided only by strikeouts or home runs. There's deception and misdirection all over the place. Running to first with two strikes or three balls is no different, in my opinion.

The only way to stop a team from doing this, aside from making it illegal, is to defend it properly. Know the game.

Yeah, you are correct, mental mistakes are obviously part of the game, but this is different in that "theoretically" an offensive player ,does something, knowingly incorrect, to try and draw a response from the defense with itentions of making them make a mistake. In that way it is more of a manipulation then other more benign mental lapses. Now I am not saying that it is wrong, it may be perfectly allowed, sounds like it is based on the posts I read here. I guess really though, this almost never happens at the more advanced level. I've never seen it happen anyway.
 
Mar 13, 2010
1,758
48
I've never not known catchers to know their count, so it shouldn't happen.

It's no different than a faked throw, or throwing to shortstop instead of second to try and fool the runner on third. It just shows that the catcher is not doing her job properly.
 
Mar 13, 2010
960
0
Columbus, Ohio
The first time a batter takes off when she's not supposed to, you really have to assume the batter just made a mistake. If it happens repeatedly, you may assume that it is a coached tactic. If it is causing delays in the game, an umpire can address it several ways.

There are rules about batters remaining in the batter's box between pitches that may apply. There are rules about the batter being set in the box withing ten seconds that might apply. And if it gets repeated enough, an umpire might warn a team to knock it off, then apply an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty if it continues.

If you're playing high school softball, they do have an interpretation in their case book that if the umpire judges this to be an intentional coached tactic he can rule unsportsmanlike conduct and penailize it. But that ruling doesn't necessarily apply to other sanctioning bodies.

I've never had it get to the point where I've had to address it and rarely ever see this happen. For the many game I work each year, I would consider this a non-issue.

Some of this can be headed off by a tiny dose of preventive umpiring. If a batter starts to advance when not entitled to, the umpire can step in and loudly announce, "That's only strike two!", or, "That's only ball three!". The one thing that really cuts down on this is perhaps the simplest umpire mechanic of all- frequently and clearly announcing the count. You're supposed to be doing that anyhow and, if you do, it tends to keep everybody on the same page.
 

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