Taking second on a walk

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Jun 22, 2008
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Why is it pointless with a runner on 3rd?

Because it never activates the lookback rule and the runner at 3rd is free to just stand there and/or even increase their lead further. Instead of the ball being in the circle with the pitcher and being a 40-45' throw to any base, the ball is now at 1st base and you have a 60-90' throw to other bases.
 
Nov 16, 2015
184
18
May be even worse. Runner at 3B is free to come off bag and camp out, as soon as 1B throws to P runner at 1st breaks to 2B. What have you accomplished other than adding an additional opportunity for an error. Not to mention that in most rule sets the catcher must return the ball back to pitcher unless making a play on a runner. Since the runner has not reached 1B there is no play.

Might make more sense to do a pick off attempt back to 3B holding R2 and then a quick throw to P at back of circle. R2 is now stuck at bag and R1 is on their own.

I enjoy discussions like this.

The rule states that is you throw to an unoccupied base it is a ball on the batter. Would 1st base be considered unoccupied in this scenario?

What i like about it, is by throwing to first it will hinder the runner from taking 2nd. Yes, the runner off of 3b can camp out. The 1B has a great view of this and should be able to hold the runner at 3rd until the runner at 1st is back on the base. Then the throw back to the pitcher should be able to get the runner back to 3rd. Im not sure i explained that real well.

Its not how I teach it, but enjoy looking at how others do and discuss it that way.
 
Jun 22, 2008
3,731
113
I enjoy discussions like this.

The rule states that is you throw to an unoccupied base it is a ball on the batter. Would 1st base be considered unoccupied in this scenario?

What i like about it, is by throwing to first it will hinder the runner from taking 2nd. Yes, the runner off of 3b can camp out. The 1B has a great view of this and should be able to hold the runner at 3rd until the runner at 1st is back on the base. Then the throw back to the pitcher should be able to get the runner back to 3rd. Im not sure i explained that real well.

Its not how I teach it, but enjoy looking at how others do and discuss it that way.

No softball rule set I am aware of says anything about throwing to an unoccupied base. The rule says if there are no runners on base, the catcher must return the ball directly to the pitcher.

What stops the batter/runner from attempting to advance the instant F3 throws the ball back to F1? You are still in the same situation. For that matter, even if F3 does have the ball in their possession, I would just have my batter/runner run straight through 1st base and take a wide turn to 2nd. Now you have F3 forced to either chase the batter/runner toward 2nd or give them up to make sure the runner at 3rd doesnt attempt to advance.
 
Nov 26, 2010
4,784
113
Michigan
At 12u we got runners out all the time and sometimes even double plays. By the second baseman moving up to the baseline about 10 feet off of first, if the runner rounds its a very short throw for the pitcher to get the runner and then second immediately checks the runner on third and makes the appropriate throw.

In 14u we got the occasional runner and never gave up a run. By 16u all the girls have such good arms the offenses rarely tried this nonsense
 
May 17, 2012
2,804
113
What i like about it, is by throwing to first it will hinder the runner from taking 2nd.

As others have pointed out you haven't stopped anything, merely delayed the first and third game. As soon as 1B throws it back to the pitcher the runner on 1B is still free to leave the base towards second.

I saw a 16u team at a PGF National Qualifier make a lot of really good teams look bad. They incorporated first/third as a part of their offense. They would strategically hold runners at first/third just to execute this game within a game. It was like watching a football team that could run the triple option at will. It sounds like it's easy to stop but man they took it to the next level. I haven't seen anything like it in 20 years. It was all legal.
 
May 24, 2013
12,461
113
So Cal
What we have found (12U TB) is that the most effective defense on this scenario starts with the C firing the ball back to P quickly. Most of the time, this is enough to keep the runners on the corners. The next part is to move 2B up to the base line (or a step in front of it), about halfway between 1st and 2nd. If the batter-runner turns and goes to 2nd, a quick snap from P to 2B will end it, and 2B is close enough to cut down the runner at 3rd trying to score. It takes good arms, and players who understand what's going on. I've seen DPs on this more than a few times.
 

SB45

Dad, Coach, Chauffeur
Sep 2, 2016
150
28
Western NY
What we have found (12U TB) is that the most effective defense on this scenario starts with the C firing the ball back to P quickly. Most of the time, this is enough to keep the runners on the corners. The next part is to move 2B up to the base line (or a step in front of it), about halfway between 1st and 2nd. If the batter-runner turns and goes to 2nd, a quick snap from P to 2B will end it, and 2B is close enough to cut down the runner at 3rd trying to score. It takes good arms, and players who understand what's going on. I've seen DPs on this more than a few times.

This is the way we like to do it as well. One thing I am unclear on....if the ball is back in the circle prior to the batter making it to first base...does the runner at 3rd have to retreat to 3rd (or advance)??? Or is the play essentially live until the batter/runner stops? I think most of the time the runner at 3rd stays where they were after they took their lead until they see if the pitcher is going to make a play. So...that's my question. And the follow-up would be...will the umpires call it?

UPDATE...duh...wasn't thinking that the LBR doesn't go into effect until the runner reaches 1st. So...I'll edit my question. If the runner rounds 1st slowly and keeps going...does the runner at 3rd have to retreat (or advance) if the P is not making a play on the batter/runner?
 
Last edited:
Jun 11, 2013
2,619
113
It's been awhile since we played 12U but in 14U and above I can't remember the last time a team tried this. I don't even remember
in 12U TB anyone really trying this.

Unless we are in a game that's going to be really low scoring or late in the game I am inclined to take a 40 foot throw to get an easy
out at second. If a team tries it keep an eye on what they do as you might be able to get them both, but I would say if you commit to the out
go ahead and get it.
 

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