Appeal to ump

Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

Jul 6, 2013
371
0
Here is a bit of one that I haven't run across before. May be simpler than I'm making it out though....

Runner on 3rd, 2 outs. Batter grounds to short. Short makes throw to 1st. Field ump calls batter out. Runner on 3rd proceeds home. 1st baseman, not knowing it was 3 outs, throws home. Hits catcher in back who had started toward dugout. Runner crosses home plate, but 3 outs. Batting team coach appeals out at first. Plate ump turns over call. Says girls foot was pulled. Teams come back on field. Runner who was at 3rd was ruled a run.

How should this be called? I can understand that the wrong call was made and to not punish batting team. But also see the fielding teams point that the play at home could have been made, but due to field ump signaling the 3rd out, the catcher had quit worrying about run coming home.

This was USFA rules, which if you've ever flipped through the rule book, is about as comprehensive as the directions on a box of pop tarts....you know what to do, but there is zero guidance for the special circumstances....
 
May 30, 2011
143
0
So many things wrong here. In no particular order:

A. This is NOT an appeal play. An appeal play is an infraction by the offense that the umpire does not rule on until it is properly appealed by the defense like missing a base or batting out of order. None of that happened here.

B. The home plate umpire does NOT overrule the base umpire on a judgement call that is the base umpires responsibility and clearly the play at 1B is the responsibility of U1 (the base umpire).

If the offense feels F3 pulled her foot they could ask U1 to ask partner for help but it would be up to U1 to seek that additional information from PU (home plate umpire) and then U1 decides if with the additional info from his/her partner the call should be reversed. In fact (and this is not uncommon) U1 may ask realize at the time of making the call that he/she does not have the angle to see a possible pulled foot and may go for help immediately or after the play is over. Personally if I am the base umpire I will go to my partner right away but sometimes it may not be so obvious and I may decide (perhaps after being asked by the offense) that I should ask my partner for input. Either way it is not "an appeal play" and in no event does one umpire overrule another.

If U1 did decide to change the call then the umpires also have to decide where the runner from 3B would have ended up. It's yet another judgement call and the argument could go either way. If I had this happen and there was the possibility of a play at the plate I would put the runner back on 3B but if I felt she would have scored I would award home.
 
Last edited:
Jul 6, 2013
371
0
Geez. A terminology nazi. Lol. Jk and duly noted. The coach did ask field ump to confer with plate ump. After discussion, U1 (I always thought FU would be more appropriate lol) called girl safe. But basically, it's just a judgement call if whether there would have been a play at the plate. Gotcha. figured I was looking into it too much. In this case, IMO, there would have been a play. For whatever reason the runner from 3B didn't go on contact and crossed the plate after the ball hit the catcher in the back. PU stated that since no attempt was made, there was no possibility of a play. FWIW, I had no stake in the game whatsoever.
 
Jun 22, 2008
3,731
113
In fact (and this is not uncommon) U1 may ask realize at the time of making the call that he/she does not have the angle to see a possible pulled foot and may go for help immediately or after the play is over. Personally if I am the base umpire I will go to my partner right away but sometimes it may not be so obvious and I may decide (perhaps after being asked by the offense) that I should ask my partner for input.

Not sure if NCAA is still teaching this mechanic, but this is not the mechanic for ASA or NFHS. The base umpire should always make the call based on the information they have, then consult with their partner if questioned by either team. What would happen if you immediately went to your partner and they didn't happen to be looking? With multiple runners the plate umpire has other responsibilities also.
 
Sep 14, 2011
768
18
Glendale, AZ
Geez. A terminology nazi. Lol. Jk and duly noted...

Yes, we umpires do tend to be "terminology nazis" as you stated.

When dealing with the rules and mechanics of the game, certain terms and words have meanings that can completely change a play or scenario if used incorrectly. That is all that is trying to be said.
 
Mar 2, 2013
444
0
This is exactly why I have argued up and down for the umpires to pre-game this situation and should it arise, the base umpire goes for help right away. Don't allow a shirt storm on the field. Preventing one is always better than cleaning it up. There is no logical justification for waiting. That's not to say that out of touch manuals don't conclude otherwise.
 
Jun 22, 2008
3,731
113
And what kind of shirt storm you think you are going to have if you give up the call to your partner and they didnt see it because they were watching another runner? Follow the prescribed mechanics and make the call.
 
May 30, 2011
143
0
Yes, we umpires do tend to be "terminology nazis" as you stated.

When dealing with the rules and mechanics of the game, certain terms and words have meanings that can completely change a play or scenario if used incorrectly. That is all that is trying to be said.

Exactly. Actual "appeal plays" get messed up simply because people in the game don't know what is and is not an "appeal play". Promise I'm not trying to make anyone look bad just trying to be clear about the rules. :cool:
 
May 30, 2011
143
0
And what kind of shirt storm you think you are going to have if you give up the call to your partner and they didnt see it because they were watching another runner? Follow the prescribed mechanics and make the call.

I've been taught this mechanic in clinics. Don't give up the call but verbally ask a question, receive an answer from partner, then with this additional information make the call. Wouldn't do it if had not pregamed it and with a partner who I know is on same page. Example: "Partner did she pull her foot?" "yes!" "Safe!!"

But it works well. Much quicker and cleaner than making a call, stopping the game, waiting for coach to come complain, then having the Umpire huddle followed by a reversed call. Even if you get it right it dosent look good.
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
42,830
Messages
679,468
Members
21,443
Latest member
sstop28
Top