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May 12, 2008
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In response to lhowser: Again in high speed video of my DD, Sarah, her hip rotation has actually started prior to the landing foot being firmly planted. As she strides (leaps) out her landing foot is at about a 60 degree angle to the powerline--by the time the foot/heel has planted her foot has counter rotated back to about 45 degrees.
Mark you spend a lot of time looking at elite level hitters, do see some similarities?---I believe I have seen this similar foot rotation(and subsequent hip rotation) prior to heal plant in some big time major league power hitters.
Second point for lhowser---in most elite level pitchers I see the hip rotation initiated prior to the shoulder rotation. This is what is meant by moving up the kinetic chain. This is certainly evident in Ueno and I know it is what my DD does.
Rick

Before you asked the question I was answering it when you spoke of hip rotation prior to foot being planted. I would say in hitting, hip rotation prior to toe touch or, as some say, rotation into foot plant. As to foot rotation, I look at it as a result rather than a cause but it is an indication what the pelvis is doing if the leg is well connected to hip loading and unloading rather than fanning open on it's own.
 
May 12, 2008
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Ken
I believe that a misinterpretation of hip snap can lead to what you are suggesting. Many think the hip rotation is some kind of beautiful flowing circular movement---the reason I've always called it hip "snap" is because the hip snaps and then has a firming up stop at the 45 degree position mentioned earlier. For lack of a better term I call this a curvilinear motion. Lots of young pitchers tend to just flow through the firmed up/stopped phase and yes they often do get their hip in the way of the arm.

I recently attended a coaches clinic where a very "high profile pitching coach" was suggesting to keep the hips out of the way until the hand has passed them---she then demonstrated in slow motion her interpretation of this. I have to tell you it was difficult to watch someone do this---it just does not look like an athletic movement. It causes the pitcher to throw with all arm and upper body.

I would interpret the hip snap and stop you refer to as that part of the kinetic chain transferring it's momentum at the point of highest velocity.
 

Ken Krause

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May 7, 2008
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Mundelein, IL
As I watch the clips over and over again, I can suggest a couple of other reasons for the hip rotation you see, neither of which is an effort to snap the hips.

The first is how far behind their bodies their arms are after passing 12:00. If they were to stay in an open position and bring their arms straight down the ball would slam into their back hip. The rotation is an effort to bring the ball into position for release.

The second one, which is hard to see on Siggy's clips but I can see on some clips I have (and will attempt to share) is the position of the back foot/leg immediately after push-off. Although all the literature says to keep the laces of the shoes pointed forward, Cat and Jennie both have their back foot pointed back toward second base as their bodies move forward. Right before the front foot plants, the back knee turns back in forward. That movement could cause the hips to rotate with it.

Admittedly, rotating the hips could also cause the knee to turn in. It's a tough call, although it looks like the back knee rotates quite a bit farther than the hips do. Could it be that the movement of the back knee gets everything back in alignment to throw the pitch? So it's not a momentum transfer issue, it's more of a balance smooth mechanics issue.

For those who believe in the hip snap, at what point would you teach that to a pitcher? I don't think it's something I would show a beginner. Most have enough trouble understanding when and how to turn sideways, much less adding in a subtle movement. Would you wait until it looks like the pitcher's mechanics are rock solid? Do you think it's something you teach, or something that better athletes simply do because they can feel it?

I have no clue how you guys are posting video clips. Guess I'll have to upload what I have to my blog for review.
 
May 12, 2008
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Cat and Jennie both have their back foot pointed back toward second base as their bodies move forward. Right before the front foot plants, the back knee turns back in forward. That movement could cause the hips to rotate with it.

.

I don't think we can say the foot turns the knee or the pelvis.
 
Jun 2, 2008
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I'm not sure what you mean by "closing her hips at the same time she throws". The timing is that the arm goes by the hips, the hips close and the pitch is made.

Where is the arm when she closes? It is by her hip or in front of her hip? Perhaps you could post a video on YouTube.

Here are a couple of still shots. The site wont let us upload video
 
Jun 20, 2008
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I believe that something is likely happening before the pictures that is causing her arm circle to get back behind her body...my next guess is that she having control problems inside or outside because of it...It is very hard to say what is causing it without seeing a viedo of her pitching (it's hard then too but alot harder trying to say why from the stills)
 

Ken Krause

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May 7, 2008
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Agreed on that

I don't think we can say the foot turns the knee or the pelvis.

I wouldn't say that either. That would be crazy talk. The foot being pointed back, though, could have the knee pointing away from where it should be. What I think we should consider is whether the knee turning forward could be bringing the pelvis with it rather than a deliberate attempt to "snap the hips."
 

Ken Krause

Administrator
Admin
May 7, 2008
3,911
113
Mundelein, IL
Cause/effect?

Ken
I believe that a misinterpretation of hip snap can lead to what you are suggesting. Many think the hip rotation is some kind of beautiful flowing circular movement---the reason I've always called it hip "snap" is because the hip snaps and then has a firming up stop at the 45 degree position mentioned earlier. For lack of a better term I call this a curvilinear motion. Lots of young pitchers tend to just flow through the firmed up/stopped phase and yes they often do get their hip in the way of the arm.

I recently attended a coaches clinic where a very "high profile pitching coach" was suggesting to keep the hips out of the way until the hand has passed them---she then demonstrated in slow motion her interpretation of this. I have to tell you it was difficult to watch someone do this---it just does not look like an athletic movement. It causes the pitcher to throw with all arm and upper body.

Rick,

So I guess my question is do you think pitchers are deliberating trying to snap their hips in that way? Or do their hips snap as a matter of making more powerful and deliberate movements elsewhere?

Compare it to the whipping action of younger, weaker pitchers v. elite pitchers. The latter tend to have much shorter and more violent arm whips, which I'm sure is deliberate. That action could cause other things to change from the actions of the former. It's not that they're trying to do those things, they just occur because of the energy level being applied.

What I would argue/wonder is whether it's something you teach, or is it merely something you look for to confirm that the body is being used properly? Did Sarah have to learn to do that and work on it, or did she just start doing it as she got bigger/stronger/better?

Ken
 
May 12, 2008
2,214
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I wouldn't say that either. That would be crazy talk. The foot being pointed back, though, could have the knee pointing away from where it should be. What I think we should consider is whether the knee turning forward could be bringing the pelvis with it rather than a deliberate attempt to "snap the hips."

It's a systems problem with a systems answer. The whole system is engaged in an effort to throw the ball. To ask whether there is a deliberate attempt to "snap the hips" is not the way I think about it. The whole movement is an attempt to throw the $%^& out of the ball. IMO, the hip movement we are talking about is universal and fundamental. Whether it's deliberate and concious would be an individual question of lesser importance to me. The hip movement is when the pelvis is transferring energy up the the torso IMO.
 
Sep 29, 2008
1,401
63
Northeast Ohio
It appears to me that it may be a natural move. Most of the super slow mo I see front on has the shoulders rotating open more than the hips whose angle seems to be somewhat set by the foot angle. This rotational differential seems to create a rubberband effect that starts with the hips and causes the muscle groups between the hips and shoulder to pull or assist in momentum. It's one of many things I noticed with my 14U looking at the thread Please share your input on my DD's motion(video) She was just pivoting open with the hips instead of pushing out and creating this differential between hips and shoulders. Working on this has helped her velocity. (thanks to tips regarding arm rotation later in the thread by Boardmember we are really starting to gain some understanding and see improvement).
 

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